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Author Topic: Penalty box seating arrangement  (Read 3532 times)

Offline sleazy

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Penalty box seating arrangement
« on: April 22, 2014, 02:02:35 pm »
Hi all, I have been an NSO for about 8 months now and a skating official for 4. During my time as an NSO I have probably done about 80% of my games as either PBT or PBM.

I recently had a bit of a disagreement with someone recently at an open scrim we had when they laid out the penalty box seating. In all the games I have ever seen or been involved in the layout has gone the following way:

(teams are red and green for this example)

Blocker Blocker Jammer Jammer Blocker Blocker

The disagreement I had was because they had the penalty box set up the following way:

Blocker Blocker Jammer Jammer Blocker Blocker

They told me that this is how we have always done the penalty box in our league and that it is also the WFTDA standard and that we should be practicing the WFTDA standard. I disagreed simply because I had never seen the box laid out that way in any game before, including leagues in Canberra and Sydney that are WFTDA leagues or apprentice leagues. I was HNSO and I thought it would be my decision to make but I wasn't allowed to change it. Several NSO's and players asked me about the seating arrangements as they also had never seen this before but I just told them this is how we are doing it for today and in doing so got some very puzzled looks in return.

So my question is, Is there an WFTDA standard for how the penalty box should be laid out? If so, have I been doing it wrong all this time or were they wrong to suggest it the way they did? Or is this one of those "it doesn't really matter what way you do it" type situations?

Thanks for your help
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 04:06:16 pm by sleazy »

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangment
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2014, 02:14:35 pm »
I can't say there is a standard or not.. But I've never seen it laid out the way you are explaining they did.
I've always seen same team with same team. BBJ JBB
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangement
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2014, 02:38:57 pm »
I have never seen that split arrangement before, for the pre-planned seating in the box.

A typical WFTDA practice is to have the entire team's box seating be farthest away from their bench.

I did see that split happen during gameplay, when a Jammer was confused and sat in the wrong seat. (One team was wearing black with a little red, and the other was wearing a little red with mostly black. I'm certain the opposing team's seat looked familiar.) I asked her to move to the other seat, as her timing continued. This was WFTDA D2 Playoffs last year.

When officiating with new folks, you often have to exercise your graciousness and flexibility skills, too. Sounds like yours got a workout.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline Kim Tonkin

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangement
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2014, 02:43:15 pm »
...I did see that split happen during gameplay, when a Jammer was confused and sat in the wrong seat. (One team was wearing black with a little red, and the other was wearing a little red with mostly black. I'm certain the opposing team's seat looked familiar.) I asked her to move to the other seat, as her timing continued. This was WFTDA D2 Playoffs last year.
..

I knew it happened last year - just couldn't recall the specific bout!!!  Though I'm sure it happens more often than not in the effort to sit and start their penalty time.

As for standard practice, definitely not listed in the public released documents
Kim Tonkin
Volunteer Official - Victorian Roller Derby League

Offline DocSkinner

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangement
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2014, 07:24:44 pm »
"We've always done it that way" is one of the things you just have to put up with when you work with other people.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangement
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 07:39:25 pm »
I knew it happened last year - just couldn't recall the specific bout!!!  Though I'm sure it happens more often than not in the effort to sit and start their penalty time.

D2 Kzoo, one of the Suburbia games, maybe against Carolina (possibly Paper Valley). They also threw a Jammer swap into that moment, as well, just because, you know... Derby.

But it should be emphasized that the penalty box seats had all members of one team together, seated further away from their bench. When the benches swapped at the half, so did the penalty box seating.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline sleazy

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangement
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 10:03:33 pm »
Thanks everyone for your replies, by the sound of things this was just one of those moments we sometimes have to deal with.

I will discuss the matter with my league HR and hopefully I or anyone else won't have to deal with this situation again.

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangement
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 11:49:13 pm »
I'm thinking I remember some where lately someone else saying they set up their penalty box with the jammers flipped as you are describing.  I think it was in a recent post I started which is sort of kind of but not kind of similar to this post.   I would think it's common practice to leave it up to the home team on how and where they set up the penalty box in their venue.  There's no rule or standard practice describing which seats what player, jammer or blocker has to sit in.  If I were the host team, just out of politeness if I was setting up the penalty box differently from the way most teams do it, I would just let them know prior to the game how the box is going to be configured so everyone is on the same playing field.  I guess if the visiting team had a problem with it, it would have to be discussed and resolved prior to the start of the game.   

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangement
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2014, 09:15:23 pm »
Quick summary of the configuration of the penalty box:

All of the rules about what the penalty box MUST be are in the very short section 1.8:

Quote
1.8.1 - The Penalty Box Area is the designated area where penalty time will be served. Benches or seats must be provided as part of the “Penalty Box”. The benches or seats must be capable of accommodating a total of six skaters (three from each team).
 
1.8.1.1 - Teams may use separate Penalty Boxes.
 
1.8.2 - The Penalty Box Area must be situated in an easily accessible, neutral area close to the track.

The structure is left to each venue and this is one of those areas where WFTDA has left it vague in order to accomodate a wide variety of venues.

So there are some unusual box structure out there.  Oftentimes they reflect a venue that imposed unusual restrictions on the track setup and that's the setup that worked.  Sometimes that setup will outlive the venue and when the league moves, they keep doing it that way since that's the way they've always done things.

Within a box, however it it laid out, there are seats and those seats are all just seats.  A skater sits in any of them, and they have been seated in the box.  We can give them labels, but those labels have no force in the rules of the game.

However, note that 1.8.1.1 does allow for a venue to set up one penalty box for each team.  That is not a commonly used option, but it can be done and that would allow for some assigned seating as a player would have to report to their penalty box and reporting to the other team's box would not start their penalty time.

In order to actually have two penalty boxes, you must also have two no return lines so you can't just say that your one penalty box is actually two adjacent penalty boxes unless you also treat each box as having its own endpoint and thus its own point of no return.  That turns out to be more annoying to enforce than accepting that skaters can use any seat they want, so almost no one does it.

Remember that the assigning of seats is a practice, not a rule.

It simplifies the logistics of timing penalties a lot if everyone goes to the seat they are asked to use and it makes it much easier for anyone not in the box to glance at the box and understand the current penalty situation.  But it is not a rule, it's a practice.

It is not illegal for a skater to sit in a seat other than the one the official asks them to use.  It is not grounds for insubordination if they refuse to move.

It is a pain in the butt and it does make the life of the box staff harder.

Fortunately, I've also never encountered a skater who refused to move when asked, but if they did, I'd be annoyed but I'd keep timing their penalty since their action is annoying, not illegal.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Penalty box seating arrangement
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2014, 03:09:42 pm »
When we first started out and for the first 4 bouting seasons we were in a small HS Gymnasium. Our PB was located in the infield with back to back chairs, Two Point of No Returns, and entrance/egress lanes.

Thankfully we no longer have to worry about those constraints or skaters flying through the infield to enter the box.
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