Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: Jammer's time in penalty box by 3Beers
April 26, 2020, 09:46:33 pm

Getting officials attention by Rego_Derby
March 03, 2020, 04:05:02 am

Re: Jammer's time in penalty box by Major Wood
February 05, 2020, 05:52:31 pm

Jammer's time in penalty box by 3Beers
January 29, 2020, 03:33:20 am

Nashville Roller Derby 2020 Scrimmage-A-Thon - 7/11/2020 by Major Wood
January 27, 2020, 09:36:38 pm

Re: Rule clarification by 3Beers
January 26, 2020, 08:09:00 pm

Re: Rule clarification by Bluebeard
January 17, 2020, 05:26:46 am

Rule clarification by 3Beers
December 28, 2019, 06:04:00 pm

Re: Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 29, 2019, 01:13:40 pm

Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 26, 2019, 06:01:48 pm

Author Topic: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass  (Read 7117 times)

Offline Technical Difficulties

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« on: June 10, 2014, 07:59:38 am »
Synopsis: At the start of the jam, White Jammer 10 knocks Blue Jammer out of bounds on the outside, then skates clockwise to the front of the pack.  The star is passed to the White Pivot 3, who becomes the Jammer and skates derbywise around the track to the back of the pack, and begins their initial pass.  Blue Jammer enters behind the new White Jammer 3, but is penalized for cutting White 10.  Basically, a new(?) twist on the soul crush.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7b3xTwpPXk&feature=youtu.be

I might very well have made the cutting call if I'd been reffing in that moment, given the "soul crush" is a currently legal and effective technique, but with the benefit of time to think about the situation: After White Ex-Jammer 10 completes the star pass, what is the track position of White now-Blocker 10 relative to the other skaters?

Is he at the front of the pack (on the same lap) relative to the other Blockers, yet also a lap behind the Blue Jammer?  Is he in front of everybody?  Or is White 10 a lap behind everybody and, now that he is a Blocker, out of play behind the pack?  The least unpalatable of these is "White 10 is a lap behind everyone" -- he clearly was while he was a Jammer, so that is where he is after he completes the star pass.

(Blue) Jammer consequences:  White 10, being a Blocker, is out of play and Blue Jammer can legally enter in front of him; in this situation, it's due to 5.11.1.4.  The usual rules for ghost points in an initial pass govern whether and when Blue Jammer earns pass credit, assuming that he wasn't already passed while he was still a Jammer(?), if Blue Jammer doesn't wait for White 10 to catch up to the pack and physically re-pass.

(White) Ex-Jammer consequences: He should be given an Out of Play warning, and could remediate that situation by skating forward.  Would it also be sufficient to stop, assuming the pack is not going clockwise, avoid engaging, and wait for all 9 of the nearby skaters to pass him before resuming forward motion?  Or would that be me trying to stretch the new yielding rules too far, and a Failure to Return penalty for White 10?

If I'm wrong and you'd uphold the cut, please explain why; if you agree with me, please affirm, as I have specifically been asked by skaters on my league about this situation.

Offline Megapickle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
  • Stats Sheet: 16
  • League Affiliation: Emerald City Roller Girls & Lane County Concussion
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2014, 12:07:28 pm »
WFTDA Rules Committee have answered this since Spring Roll: It should not be a cut. When the star pass is successful, the jammer-turned-blocker instantly joins the pack on whatever lap they're on. So in this case, White 10 is teleported forward a lap, and at that moment, the Blue Jammer can step in without penalty, because the guy who hit him out is now ahead.

Offline FNZebra

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1408
  • Stats Sheet: 35
  • I'm a shitty ref.
  • League Affiliation: Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Level 2
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2014, 03:41:26 pm »
Megapickle is correct.

The Jammer knock-out was legal. The runback was legal. The Star Pass was legal. Upon a legal Star Pass the new Jammer picks up where the was-Jammer was:
[rule]2.5.5 - A Pivot who has just become the Jammer is now subject to all rules per Section 7 - Scoring. The Pivot picks up where the previous Jammer left off (i.e., on the same pass, having scored points on the same Blockers during that pass).[/rule]

The was-Jammer now-Blocker should not be placed in a position where they must receive a penalty for having performed what was a legal action. So, using the the now-Jammer's position change as guidance, declaring the was-Jammer now-Blocker to pick up where the was-Pivot left off (in the EZ, on the same pass as the pack) fits most cleanly.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline Rev. Riot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
  • Stats Sheet: 32
  • Anything needed gettin' done.
  • League Affiliation: Gotham
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 03:47:04 am »
To chime in with a follow-up I was recently asked:

What about the new opposing Jammer the OOB Jammer is entering in front of?

Rules didn't discuss this particular part of it, but like Pickle and F'n said, we did agree with "No cut, initial pass". Based on that, my particular understanding, as a referee, would be thus:

NP/NP on the re-entering Jammer. She is certainly entering in front of that other Jammer, and never passed her, but because the new Jammer is not the one who knocked her out of bounds, she's also not beholden to enter behind her anyway.
Matthew Mantsch - Reverend Riot
WFTDA Rules Theory Committee
Gotham Girls Roller Derby - NYC

Offline Megapickle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
  • Stats Sheet: 16
  • League Affiliation: Emerald City Roller Girls & Lane County Concussion
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 04:28:08 am »
To clarify - in the video, the OOB Jammer actually waits & enters behind (in every possible interpretation) the new opposing Jammer. But it's an interesting hypothetical, IF the OOB Jammer were to have stepped in immediately after the star pass...

She is certainly entering in front of that other Jammer, and never passed her, but because the new Jammer is not the one who knocked her out of bounds, she's also not beholden to enter behind her anyway.

But players ARE beholden to reenter behind those they exited behind (and in this scenario, the force-out happened behind the entire pack). We're saying that the 'forward teleportation' of the Jammer-turned-Blocker eliminates their ability to draw a cut -- so I fail to see why the equivalent 'backward-teleportation' of the Pivot-turned-Jammer doesn't create a cut liability. Do you have any insight there, Riot?

Offline bjmacke

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Stats Sheet: 2
  • League Affiliation: Minnesota RollerGirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Level 2
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 04:41:59 am »
Passes are something jammers do, not blockers. Once the former jammer becomes a blocker they are part of the pack and there is no "pass relative to the pack" associated with that blocker. The OOB jammer need only enter in behind the skater that knocked her out (and avoid entering in front of any other skaters that may have been behind her when originally knocked OOB) to avoid the cut.

(edit: small language fix)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 04:47:51 am by bjmacke »
also known as Apron, if you didn't know already.

Offline Megapickle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
  • Stats Sheet: 16
  • League Affiliation: Emerald City Roller Girls & Lane County Concussion
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 04:58:11 am »
You mean this, right?
[...] (and avoid entering in front of any other skaters that she may have been behind her when originally knocked OOB) to avoid the cut.

And my point is that s/he did exit behind the player who is now the jammer and who is now a large portion of a lap behind the OOB jammer. Why can that player not draw a cut by having been in front at the moment of exit & behind behind at the moment of hypothetical reentry?

Offline bjmacke

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Stats Sheet: 2
  • League Affiliation: Minnesota RollerGirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Level 2
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 05:51:50 am »
I get where you're coming from, but the pass relative to the pack is not a metric to the track cut. Passing the star unbinds the "skater who knocked the OOB jammer out" from the "jammer pass relative to the pack". The first half stays with the former-jammer-now-blocker, the latter with the pivot-now-jammer.
also known as Apron, if you didn't know already.

Offline Megapickle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
  • Stats Sheet: 16
  • League Affiliation: Emerald City Roller Girls & Lane County Concussion
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 06:27:35 am »
Yes, it is agreed that "jammer pass relative to the pack" applies to White 3 in the moments after the star pass. He's basically a lap back, finishing his "pre-initial" pass, ~100 feet behind Blue 6502. And where was White 3 at Blue 6502's exit? Two feet ahead of him, right? So why would that not be a cut?

That anyone forced 6502 out is totally immaterial to this question. He could've fallen out of bounds on accident without contact & it wouldn't change my point.

Sorry if it seems like I'm repeating myself, just totally not picking up what you're throwing down, Apron.

Offline Rev. Riot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
  • Stats Sheet: 32
  • Anything needed gettin' done.
  • League Affiliation: Gotham
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 07:01:53 am »
Nope, it's a valid point...

Like I said, Rules didn't discuss this part (probably because, in the example, it wasn't relevant).

Someone asked me, that was my response, no more official than anyone else's here.

But I think that, if asked to explain it I'd point out that while, yes, the new Jammer is behind the OOB Jammer, by position, they never WENT behind them, they never dropped back. They kind of just... appeared there (like coming in from the penalty box, maybe?).
Matthew Mantsch - Reverend Riot
WFTDA Rules Theory Committee
Gotham Girls Roller Derby - NYC

Offline The Gorram Reaver

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 875
  • Stats Sheet: 60
  • League Affiliation: Mad Rollin' Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 05:51:11 pm »
They kind of just... appeared there.

Proof!  Star passes are [DavidCopperfieldHands] magic!
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline The Sharmanator

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 336
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Girls / Cincinnati Battering Rams
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 07:57:32 pm »
Nope, it's a valid point...

Like I said, Rules didn't discuss this part (probably because, in the example, it wasn't relevant).

Someone asked me, that was my response, no more official than anyone else's here.

But I think that, if asked to explain it I'd point out that while, yes, the new Jammer is behind the OOB Jammer, by position, they never WENT behind them, they never dropped back. They kind of just... appeared there (like coming in from the penalty box, maybe?).

Poof!  Make is so #1.

Offline Devilspawn

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Light City Derby
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 11:29:28 am »
In regard to the video example, is that star pass considered legal? I had basically the same play happen to me a few days ago. I'm looking through the rules questions at the moment trying to find something that will help me.

Offline Stray Taco

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 385
  • Stats Sheet: 4
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Derby / Athens Ohio Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Position of ex-jammer on -1 lap after star pass
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 11:38:28 am »
In regard to the video example, is that star pass considered legal? I had basically the same play happen to me a few days ago. I'm looking through the rules questions at the moment trying to find something that will help me.

Why wouldn't it be? Pivot and Hammer were both in the EZ and everything looked fine.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 4460
Views: 7511
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2977
Views: 6086
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 3182
Views: 7011
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3990
Views: 9035
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal