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Author Topic: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2  (Read 5106 times)

Offline Germaine of Thrones

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Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« on: December 03, 2014, 04:42:26 am »
0
To those of you who are, have been, or plan to be HR's, which powers would you see best for positions? Since we have less than a month before this goes into effect, I figure it's best for us to start talking about this. I assume this is discussed on the wftda forum, but I'm not on there, so I'd like to open this up to those that are in a similar position as me.

In the past for non-sanc/reg plays, some HR's had already given me (as Penalty Box Manager) the ability to call Illegal Procedures, and Misconduct instead of having to write it on the whiteboard as some refs forget what the PBM procedures means and they wanted to decrease timeouts. In one case however, HR granted me to call IP on any skater that decided to cut across the track to get to the box (One of the teams had a habit of doing it).

So thoughts?

Offline Kabong

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2014, 03:04:52 pm »
+2
To those of you who are, have been, or plan to be HR's, which powers would you see best for positions? Since we have less than a month before this goes into effect, I figure it's best for us to start talking about this. I assume this is discussed on the wftda forum, but I'm not on there, so I'd like to open this up to those that are in a similar position as me.

In the past for non-sanc/reg plays, some HR's had already given me (as Penalty Box Manager) the ability to call Illegal Procedures, and Misconduct instead of having to write it on the whiteboard as some refs forget what the PBM procedures means and they wanted to decrease timeouts. In one case however, HR granted me to call IP on any skater that decided to cut across the track to get to the box (One of the teams had a habit of doing it).

So thoughts?

That one’s actually a SOOB:   5.12.16.1 - Cutting across the infield on the way to the Penalty Box.
… but I get your point  ;)
 
The penalty families I see an NSO being able to call under are limited to IP, Insubs, DoG, and Misconduct. Specifically “situations in which NSO’s are able to observe penalties.” I’d take that as situations in which an NSO is likely better suited/positioned to see the penalty. If an NSO would’ve previously had to catch a ref to make the call, it’s probably a call they should be empowered to make. These are the ones I’d probably ask specific positions to call, given their line of sight (Jam Timers may call DoGs, PBMs may call all PB violations, absolutely any official may call an insub for language/gestures…):

Illegal Procedure:

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
5.13.9 - A penalized Skater who leaves the Penalty Box during either a team or Official Timeout.

5.13.10 - Entering the Penalty Box to communicate with a penalized Skater (see Section 6.2.4.1).

5.13.11 - A penalized Skater who removes safety equipment while in the Penalty Box. A penalized Skater may remove their mouth guard only after being seated in the Penalty Box. Merely adjusting safety equipment while in the Penalty Box is not to be penalized.

5.13.20 - A Skater completely exiting the Penalty Box before they are released by an Official. (Note: If the Penalty Box Official instructs the Skater to leave early, this penalty does not apply; (see Section 5.13.2).

5.13.22 - Removing required safety equipment (see Section 6.2.6 and Section 9.1.1).

•   6.2.6 - Penalized Skaters may remove only their mouth guard once they are seated in the Penalty Box. No other equipment may be removed while a Skater is in the designated Penalty Box Area (see Section 5.13.11).

Insubordination:

 
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
5.14.4 - The use of obscene, profane, or abusive language or gestures directed at an Official. If no one can be singled out as the offending part, but it is clearly coming from a Skater, this penalty will be issued to the corresponding Captain.

Delay of Game:

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
5.15.4 - Failure to be on the track for the next jam at jam start, in the appropriate position (Pivot or Blocker), when currently in the Penalty Box queue. One penalty will be assessed to each offending Skater.

5.15.10 - A Skater, having previously had the jam called off for injury, being on the track at the jam start before the allotted three jams required for the Skater to sit out have elapsed (see Section 9.3.1. The penalty should be issued to the Captain. If the Referee believes the injury presents a serious and immediate threat to the Skater or others, the Referee should immediately send the Skater back to their bench rather than waiting until the end of the line-up time.

Misconduct:

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
5.16.10 - The use of obscene, profane, or abusive language or gestures directed at a mascot, announcer, audience member, or other event production individuals. If no one can be singled out as the offending party but it is clearly coming from a Skater, this penalty will be issued to the corresponding Captain.

5.16.11 - The excessive use of obscene, profane, or abusive language or gestures directed at an opponent, teammate, manager, coach, or other team support staff. If no one can be singled out as the offending party but it is clearly coming from a Skater, or if a team as a whole is being offensive (though no individual Skater’s offensive speech is considered “excessive”), this penalty will be assessed to the corresponding Captain.

5.16.12 - A Skater who, on their way to the Penalty Box during a jam, causes another person (including Officials, opponents, and audience members, but not including teammates) to vacate their position to reasonably avoid being forcibly contacted. This includes people correctly positioned in their team area and is not limited to people in the Penalty Box.

5.16.13 - Habitual entry to the Penalty Box during a jam in which contact, either actual or potential, by the Skater’s seat to another person (including Officials, opponents, and audience members, but not including teammates) is caused by a structural failure of the seat and not the entry of the Skater. Penalty is to be issued where proper precaution is not being shown by the offending Skater, causing the habitual failure of a seat or seats.
Kabong
Skating Official/Skater

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2014, 09:55:10 pm »
0
For the penalties that should go to the Captain, I think it would in most cases still make sense to have a referee assess the penalty.

For example, if a bench coach enters the penalty box between jams, would you expect the PBM to call an OTO, walk over to the team benches (or onto the track) to call a penalty on the captain? I guess I don't see why that _couldn't_ happen, but it seems to me like the main reason to empower NSOs in this way is expedience. For situations like the above, it might be more expedient for the PBM to walk to the HR and ask them to assess the penalty.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 04:24:11 am »
+2
The skater vote reinforces the fact that many folks in pink/blue know the rules very well. Period. Well... Plus expedience. They want that other skater to serve that penalty earned as fast as possible.

Been doing this since 2007, some of my most interesting rules conversations have been with folks who never wear stripes.

Why wouldn't you expect to see a very solid PBM who has been permitted to issue a penalty for illegal communication in the box?

I'd also expect that same PBM try to have a skater who left early tracked down by an OPR in that same game. Because expedience, and who is faster to properly apply a penalty as earned. And sometimes running in those fashionable shirts is awkward.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline Germaine of Thrones

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 07:19:49 am »
+2
For the penalties that should go to the Captain, I think it would in most cases still make sense to have a referee assess the penalty.

For example, if a bench coach enters the penalty box between jams, would you expect the PBM to call an OTO, walk over to the team benches (or onto the track) to call a penalty on the captain? I guess I don't see why that _couldn't_ happen, but it seems to me like the main reason to empower NSOs in this way is expedience. For situations like the above, it might be more expedient for the PBM to walk to the HR and ask them to assess the penalty.

I would disagree with that. If the PBM is empowered, I would assume it's because they are well versed on the rule, and there's gotta be some communication between them and the HR so that the HR knows to trust them. I don't think there's a need for an NSO to suggest it to a ref when they are able to do it themselves. If a team has an issue with the penalty being called, they can call an OR, and that NSO will have to discuss what occurred.

I don't see it in the rules, but wouldn't it be better for the empowered NSOs to have a whistle? If they are calling penalties, they need to blow it to get the skater's attention, as well as the Penalty and Lineup Tracker's/Whiteboard attention.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 07:27:22 am by Germaine of Thrones »

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 12:20:30 pm »
+5
If it is something that might require going to the bench to tell the coach that someone has a penalty, I would (personally) prefer that kind of communication be funneled through the head ref.

As far as whistles, think about how close the ears of skaters are to penalty box staff. Additionally, skaters are used to listening for verbal cues from penalty box staff. There is already a way to communicate from the penalty box to the center (whiteboard).
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I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 12:28:07 pm »
+3
Yes. If you can't communicate the penalty easily using a loud lunchroom voice, then try to involve a ref using the usual methods. Those aren't being eliminated. If you have to, take a quick OTO between jams to get things dealt with.

We don't need more whistles.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline 1600-DOCTORB

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 03:58:20 pm »
0
For example, if a bench coach enters the penalty box between jams

do you mean during a jam? or do you mean walking in between jams & talking to the skater? HAVE I BEEN FUCKING UP?!

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 04:38:49 pm »
+1
For example, if a bench coach enters the penalty box between jams
do you mean during a jam? or do you mean walking in between jams & talking to the skater? HAVE I BEEN FUCKING UP?!

A bench coach may enter the penalty box, between or during jams. Legal. In fact, if they are going to provide a water bottle, skate tool, or marker for arm numbers, I'd personally prefer they actually walk it in and hand it off directly, rather than throw it or trying to roll it in.

A bench coach may not enter the penalty box to communicate with a penalized skater.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
5.13.10 - Entering the Penalty Box to communicate with a penalized Skater (see Section 6.2.4.1).

6.2.4.1 - A penalized Skater’s teammates, managers, and coaches may not physically enter the designated Penalty Box Area to communicate with the penalized Skater at any time (see Section 5.13.10).
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 09:06:40 pm »
0
a.  A bench coach walks into the penalty box hands the penalized skater a bottle of water and turns around and leaves. No penalty.

b.  A bench coach walks into the penalty box, hands the penalized skater a bottle of water and says "Here ya go", turns around and leaves.  Penalty or no penalty?

c.  A bench coach walks into the penalty box hands the penalized skater a bottle of water, the penalized skater says "thank you".  The bench coach says nothing and turns around and leaves  Penalty or no Penalty?

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 09:42:53 pm »
+3
a.  A bench coach walks into the penalty box hands the penalized skater a bottle of water and turns around and leaves. No penalty.

b.  A bench coach walks into the penalty box, hands the penalized skater a bottle of water and says "Here ya go", turns around and leaves.  Penalty or no penalty?

c.  A bench coach walks into the penalty box hands the penalized skater a bottle of water, the penalized skater says "thank you".  The bench coach says nothing and turns around and leaves  Penalty or no Penalty?

No penalty for all three. 

There used to be a Q&A (now removed) which defined "communication" as the "passing of information".  I think this is a fair definition in regards to the penalty box.  I'm not looking for a reason to issue a penalty here.  I'm looking for a reason not to issue it, and "here you go" and "thank you" are insufficient levels of communication to warrant a penalty in my opinion.  Not issuing a penalty for cases B and C is a good use of officiating discretion.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline kanimiro

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Re: Might as well start discussing 8.3.7 through 8.3.7.2
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2016, 08:14:34 am »
0
I agree with the third comment about that...
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