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Author Topic: Jammer Lap Points Graphic  (Read 13058 times)

Offline AdamSmasher

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Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« on: September 17, 2015, 03:03:54 pm »
Hey folks - I've got a new graphic I'd like some feedback on. This one's a little trickier than the prior two, because jammer lap points are a more complicated topic, and because there's definitely more than one effective way to explain them.  This is just one approach. 

That said, I'd be interested in feedback on how to make this graphic a) more accurate and b) cleaner and easier to follow.

Please don't share or distribute it outside of ZH yet - this is a work in progress, so lets keep it here until we've thrashed out the final version. Please feel free to share with whomever you like, as long as the attribution is left intact.

Jammer Lap Points Diagram

Usual disclaimers - this is not official, I am not speaking for WFTDA, accuracy not guaranteed, do not taunt honey badgers, current as of latest rule set, etc etc.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 02:37:10 pm by AdamSmasher »
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Offline Stray Taco

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2015, 03:14:20 pm »
I've never seen the light bulb analogy before, but that works great!
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

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Offline llama of death

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2015, 06:40:51 pm »
I thought at the start of the jam, they are both in lapping position, thus lights both on. Not just whoever is in front. ??? am I wrong on that, or am I misunderstanding your graphic?
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Stray Taco

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2015, 06:47:44 pm »
I thought at the start of the jam, they are both in lapping position, thus lights both on. Not just whoever is in front. ??? am I wrong on that, or am I misunderstanding your graphic?

In the literal sense, yes they are both in position to lap, but I think what he's doing here works well, because if the jammer in front has her light on, she'll get a LP on her next pass. If the other jammer passes her, the lights switch and things come out right. It keeps it simple without having to remember exceptions. So, as an ability to explain the rule, not necessarily, but as a tool while on the track it's great.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2015, 07:49:11 pm »
What Taco said.  The simplest possible definition is "you have to pass the other jammer twice," but the start of the jam breaks this because the jammer starting in front *doesn't* have to do this. If you consider whoever's in front to already have lapping position, then it works, because if the jammer in back passes her, the position transfers.

The problem with saying "both have lapping position" is that it implies that the rear jammer can get a lap point *immediately* which is clearly not the case.
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Offline Kabong

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2015, 01:16:36 pm »
I think it's a great analogy. The front jammer earns lapping position at the start. No issue. Minor comment (hehe, minors): I think in the first examples you should probably add the track lines as they are in the subsequent examples. Consistency and whatnot.
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2015, 02:06:28 pm »
I think it's a great analogy. The front jammer earns lapping position at the start. No issue. Minor comment (hehe, minors): I think in the first examples you should probably add the track lines as they are in the subsequent examples. Consistency and whatnot.

Added.  Although... I considered whether I wanted to get into the can of worms about whether a NP/NP jammer pass nonetheless allows them to get lapping position.  (Clearly it's not a *point*, but does it "turn the light on?")

Then I remembered that the point of the graphic was to be a simple as possible, and decided to let that sleeping dog lie.
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Offline Kabong

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2015, 02:20:14 pm »
I think it's a great analogy. The front jammer earns lapping position at the start. No issue. Minor comment (hehe, minors): I think in the first examples you should probably add the track lines as they are in the subsequent examples. Consistency and whatnot.

Added.  Although... I considered whether I wanted to get into the can of worms about whether a NP/NP jammer pass nonetheless allows them to get lapping position.  (Clearly it's not a *point*, but does it "turn the light on?")

Then I remembered that the point of the graphic was to be a simple as possible, and decided to let that sleeping dog lie.

I just brought that up to a group of friends after seeing your graphic. As the definition of JLP is
[rule]Jammer Lap Point
If one Jammer completely laps the opposing Jammer while both Jammers are on the track, that lapping Jammer will score an additional point each time the Jammer fully laps that opposing Jammer. Exceptions occur when the opposing Jammer is not on the track (see Section 7.2.7).
[/rule]
(Emphasis mine)
I would have to say (this is a weird new thought for me) that a non-box-related, regular ol' jammer-jammer NP/NP would not put that jammer in lapping position/turn on the light. Thoughts?
Kabong
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2015, 02:25:46 pm »

I just brought that up to a group of friends after seeing your graphic. As the definition of JLP is
[rule]Jammer Lap Point
If one Jammer completely laps the opposing Jammer while both Jammers are on the track, that lapping Jammer will score an additional point each time the Jammer fully laps that opposing Jammer. Exceptions occur when the opposing Jammer is not on the track (see Section 7.2.7).
[/rule]
(Emphasis mine)
I would have to say (this is a weird new thought for me) that a non-box-related, regular ol' jammer-jammer NP/NP would not put that jammer in lapping position/turn on the light. Thoughts?

My thought is that if both the first and second pass have to happen while both jammers are in bounds, then it's possible that both jammers could simultaneously be in a position to lap the other one.  This makes me very sad.  I think a NP/NP pass *should* count for lapping position, but only a legal pass should count for scoring. I think this is closer to the spirit of the rules on lap points. That said, I fully understand the opposing opinion.

I will also emphatically *not* be trying to work this painful level of subtlety into the graphic. :)
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Offline Kabong

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2015, 03:26:13 pm »
I disagree spirit-of-the-rules(SOTR) -wise. I'd think jammer passes SHOULD mirror other passes, ie, if one jammer is off the track (but not a NOTT), that the lap should count as a pass/point as it would in any other consideration. It's a new thought to me, but I'd have to agree with (my interpretation of) the rules' position on NP/NP. That pass wouldn't count for lead or a point if the opposing jammer was instead a blocker, so maybe it shouldn't (ethically) count for a jammer pass? And I agree that you don't need to muddy up your lovely graphic with anything from this side convo. At least not yet.

Edit: and in regards to both being in lapping position simultaneously, I don't think they would. If a jammer gets that NP/NP and returns to the point where the opposing jammer is stuck, having taken a track-lap, it'd be as if no such pass happened, point-and pass- wise. They'd still be where they were when the NP/NP took place, with regards to light/lapping position.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 04:04:44 pm by Kabong »
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Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2015, 09:03:15 pm »
I suggest the NP question be continued elsewhere. :)

Love this graphic, just like your previous ones. Very helpful!

My only point of feedback is that I had slight issues following the "what happens when a jammer comes back from the box?" section and initially read from top left to bottom left for some reason. It's entirely possible I'm just tired and dumb so I wouldn't read too much into it though.

I didn't get any blue jammer's references and found them slightly confusing.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2015, 01:14:51 pm »
I didn't get any blue jammer's references and found them slightly confusing.

Sigh.  I know I should take them out, but they entertain me.

Devo
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Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2015, 08:24:44 pm »
I didn't get any blue jammer's references and found them slightly confusing.

Sigh.  I know I should take them out, but they entertain me.

Devo

Perhaps put an asterisk next to the Devo jokes with an explanation at the bottom of the page that only Devo fans will get the joke?
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2015, 02:51:12 pm »
I suggest the NP question be continued elsewhere. :)

Love this graphic, just like your previous ones. Very helpful!

My only point of feedback is that I had slight issues following the "what happens when a jammer comes back from the box?" section and initially read from top left to bottom left for some reason. It's entirely possible I'm just tired and dumb so I wouldn't read too much into it though.

I didn't get any blue jammer's references and found them slightly confusing.

Rookie graphic design mistake on my part - I centered more things than I should have.  Adjusted.

Also, I took Stevil's suggestion and added a footnote with a link to the Wikipedia page for Devo. Which is not a comment one normally would have expected for a graphic on lap points, I suppose.
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 02:36:36 pm »
OK, with no further feedback, I'm going to declare this my final version. Please feel free to share with anyone you like.
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