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Author Topic: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?  (Read 22560 times)

Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 06:40:25 am »
Quote
In regards of the panty being removed for safety, the helmet panties are a part of the game and should not be removed from the track with the exception of by the "original jammer or pivot" at least until the end of a jam.

I would argue that the helmet cover should stay on the track, even after the end of the jam.  If it's on the track when the jam ends, it  needs to remain there for when the next jam begins.  That's my interpretation.

-Nigel

But it doesn't say they can only recover it during the jam.  ;)
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 02:06:03 pm »
Errrr . . . actually "original" applies to both jammer and pivot.

As I eventually learned through some long threads of WFTDA discussion, refs cannot judge the intention of a jammer who "drops" the star, even if it is nowhere near the pivot. If she drops the star, the original pivot may pick it up and successfully complete a star pass.

And I learned that  "directly" is pretty elastic here as well. Directly means an exchange that is not thrown in the air or handed off via another player, (following 3.5.3 Pass Procedure:).

Some may feel inclined to make the argument that the wording "hand it off directly" unambiguously denotes a physical hand-to-hand hand off. Under the current rules and WFTDA discussions, it does not denote only that kind of exchange.

~j.z.

This has nothing to do with judging intention at all. In relay races a runner can't throw the baton at another runner. It must be handed directly from one player to the other, at one point both hands must be touching it, or it is not a legal baton pass. If a jammer lays the panty on the ground for the pivot to pick up, she isn't handing it. If the jammer hands it to the pivot and both their hands don't touch it at the same time, then it is a throw. There is no ambiguity to this rule.

So if a jammer drops the panty, and the pivot picks it up and puts it on her head she is breaking the rules. Now, after reading it a couple times more I do believe there may be the possibility that the pivot can pick up a panty dropped by the jammer and hand it back to the jammer legally, whereas the jammer may either hand it back to the pivot or return it to her head.

I would argue that the helmet cover should stay on the track, even after the end of the jam.  If it's on the track when the jam ends, it  needs to remain there for when the next jam begins.  That's my interpretation.

As far a panty being on the track at the end of a jam, it should be able to be recovered by anyone between jams. I mean, we don't penalize teams for having two pivots on the track before the first whistle if one of them leaves the track before the whistle.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 02:42:09 pm »
Some may feel inclined to make the argument that the wording "hand it off directly" unambiguously denotes a physical hand-to-hand hand off. Under the current rules and WFTDA discussions, it does not denote only that kind of exchange.

~j.z.

This has nothing to do with judging intention at all. In relay races a runner can't throw the baton at another runner. It must be handed directly from one player to the other, at one point both hands must be touching it, or it is not a legal baton pass. If a jammer lays the panty on the ground for the pivot to pick up, she isn't handing it. If the jammer hands it to the pivot and both their hands don't touch it at the same time, then it is a throw. There is no ambiguity to this rule.

Again:

Some may feel inclined to make the argument that the wording "hand it off directly" unambiguously denotes a physical hand-to-hand hand off. Under the current rules and WFTDA discussions, it does not denote only that kind of exchange.

Trust me.

~j.z.
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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 03:30:17 pm »
Again:

Some may feel inclined to make the argument that the wording "hand it off directly" unambiguously denotes a physical hand-to-hand hand off. Under the current rules and WFTDA discussions, it does not denote only that kind of exchange.

Trust me.

~j.z.

Well, Johnny Zebra's right.

As refs we can't assume intent, right? The cover comes off the Jammer's helmet. Either that Jammer or the Pivot may pick it up without penalty because:
-It's not an unfair advantage either way
-It's not unsafe

"Directly" apparently means nobody can handle the cover between it leaving the Jammer's helmet and the Pivot taking it.

I don't know about you all, but I learned something today.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 04:15:15 pm by Jessticular Fortitude »
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 03:49:54 pm »
Consider football:

A "hand off" is when the quarterback gives the ball to a player and the ball is never without a hand on it.
A "pass" is when the quarterback gives the ball to a player and for a period of time it is in the air, with no hands touching it.

While the WFDTA rules use the word pass in the term "Star Pass" ambiguously, it says "hand it off directly" not pass it without assistance from other players. As refs we do not judge intent. What would you do if a jammer throws it at the pivot, the pivot lets it hits the floor, picks it up and puts it on? The jammer can claim that she "dropped" it. As a ref you can't say "No, you threw it at her." Or, the jammer drops it, and while it is falling it hits the leg of a blocker, and the pivot picks it up and puts it on. Then the argument can be made that it was handed off via other players. The only way that a star pass can be made directly from jammer to pivot without any argument that it wasn't thrown, or handed via other players, is by requiring both players to be touching the panty at the same time for even just a split second.

Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2009, 05:04:40 pm »
Trust me.

~j.z.

Do indeed trust him. Like it or not, that is the way it is understood and enforced. Any other way is the incorrect call.
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2009, 05:23:38 pm »
to make sure I got it right: handing off the panty to the pivot via the floor (=dropping) is okay?
handing off the panty to the pivot via the air (=throwing) is not?

I can't believe that the rule was meant that way when it was written... 

Quote
So if the Jammer dropped the cover, only the Jammer may pick it up. If the Pivot drops it, only the Pivot may pick it up.

That's the only way it makes sense to me. Because the rule mentions "helmet cover" not "jammer helmet cover". And that because it includes the situation when a pivot loses her helmet cover. then only she (the "original" pivot) can retrieve it.

please correct me if if I am wrong (WFTDA-wise)!!!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 05:31:30 pm by Riff Reff »
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2009, 05:37:16 pm »
Question submitted to WFDTA:

If a Jammer drops the Jammer Helmet Cover, can the Pivot pick it up, put it on her head and begin scoring points?

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2009, 05:39:43 pm »
Let's be careful here. While the information is valid and important to mention, remember that we are not in the confines of the WFTDA forum.
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Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2009, 06:38:07 pm »
Let's be careful here. While the information is valid and important to mention, remember that we are not in the confines of the WFTDA forum.

I think he meant he sent it in hopes that it will be addressed on rules.wftda.com.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2009, 07:09:00 pm »
That's what I meant. Since there's so many different interpretations of this rule it would be nice to get an official WFDTA clarification.

Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2009, 07:12:07 pm »
That's what I meant. Since there's so many different interpretations of this rule it would be nice to get an official WFDTA clarification.

We are here relaying the message received from such a place. Myself and Mr. Zebra were in the "whoever dropped it is the only one who can pick it up" camp.
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Offline Crotch Rock-It

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2009, 08:43:17 pm »
That's what I meant. Since there's so many different interpretations of this rule it would be nice to get an official WFDTA clarification.

We are here relaying the message received from such a place. Myself and Mr. Zebra were in the "whoever dropped it is the only one who can pick it up" camp.

Out of curiousity, were y'all and other refs over-rulled by skaters on this clarification?  I would think that most refs would see the rules as you stated above, but most skaters would be more inclined to let the pivot pick it up if the jammer dropped it.

Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2009, 09:03:27 pm »
That's what I meant. Since there's so many different interpretations of this rule it would be nice to get an official WFDTA clarification.

We are here relaying the message received from such a place. Myself and Mr. Zebra were in the "whoever dropped it is the only one who can pick it up" camp.

Out of curiousity, were y'all and other refs over-rulled by skaters on this clarification?  I would think that most refs would see the rules as you stated above, but most skaters would be more inclined to let the pivot pick it up if the jammer dropped it.

I think the most accurate way of stating it is that some people read this rule to mean one thing, and other people read it to mean something else. The people who's job it is to deal with any points of contention let us know what the statement does indeed mean. No one is over-rulled, they are just informed that their previous understanding of what the rule means is incorrect.
DC Rollergirls, Head Referee

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Jammer's helmet cover comes off: now what is she?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2009, 05:22:34 am »
So can we get a 'clear' errata or "This is what the powers that be have decreed?"

I'm still in the "in my mind "Original Jammer" means they can pick up the Jammer panty, "Original Pivot" means they can pick up the pivot panty.

However, I've also heard the opposite argument from a Head Ref with more experience than me.

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