intruder

Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: JAMMER HELMET COVER by Stray Taco
October 03, 2019, 12:54:03 pm

Clover Cup 2020 - March 20-22 - North Richland Hills, TX USA by SodOff
September 28, 2019, 10:09:13 am

JAMMER HELMET COVER by 3Beers
September 22, 2019, 12:35:26 pm

Re: "Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Bluebeard
July 11, 2019, 06:30:49 pm

"Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Rego_Derby
July 11, 2019, 01:08:36 am

Re: Jammer Scoring Theory by Major Wood
June 26, 2019, 09:59:33 pm

Jammer Scoring Theory by Rego_Derby
June 25, 2019, 04:30:03 am

Re: Clamping down with the upper arm by bmd (2113)
June 12, 2019, 07:54:29 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Major Wood
June 12, 2019, 04:16:34 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Rego_Derby
June 11, 2019, 11:35:08 pm

Author Topic: Official Review Mid-jam  (Read 5123 times)

Offline llama of death

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 306
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • Referee
  • League Affiliation: Rollling Hills Derby Dames, WheatWhackers (JRDA)
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Official Review Mid-jam
« on: September 26, 2015, 10:44:12 pm »
[rule]8.2.6.1 - A Referee may call off a jam for any of the following reasons:

8.2.6.1.1 - Referees call an Official Timeout.
----------
6.4.2.1 - A Skater may be expelled from the game at the Head Referee’s discretion for serious physical violence or any action deemed by the Officials to cause an extraordinary physical threat to others (see Section 5.16.26), or for extremely unsporting conduct. Only the Head Referee may expel a Skater, coach, or manager. The Head Referee’s decision is binding.[/rule]*emphasis mine*


Expulsions can happen at any time, but only called by the HR. Yet it can take time to relay the relevant info to an HR who had no eyes on the situation, mid jam. This is where I would call an official review mid jam? I hesitate to do so as it has serious effects on game-play, but if the action was obviously egregious or negligent then the expultion should get called before that skater has a chance to return to the track and possibly do it again.

My example for this is thus: [assumptions, min staff for referees]
Black fields a jammer who has just passed mins (happens all the time out here), The black jammer after getting out and coming around for her scoring pass attempts to emulate the high speed entry speed of her favorite jammers, she come in hot and tries to put on the breaks right at the backs of the white wall (moving derby direction but very slowly). She slams into white's back causing her to fall. This is an obvious ejection for the jam-ref of black jammer. In this situation it may be best to call an OTO, no?

If the refs had a full crew, I would say the answer is for black jam-ref to issue the penalty and while she is in the box skate over to the HR and recommend the expulsion without calling the jam, as it can have a huge effect on the game, then the HR can give the pack to their other IPR and go to the box to issue the expulsion.


Last version of this, what if the HR is the one to see a penalty like this? How should they eject the skater then?
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Axis of Stevil

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 428
  • Stats Sheet: 7
  • Skating in circles since 2012
  • League Affiliation: Garden State Rollergirls and Jerzey Derby Brigade
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2015, 07:10:31 am »
Quote
Black fields a jammer who has just passed mins (happens all the time out here), The black jammer after getting out and coming around for her scoring pass attempts to emulate the high speed entry speed of her favorite jammers, she come in hot and tries to put on the breaks right at the backs of the white wall (moving derby direction but very slowly). She slams into white's back causing her to fall. This is an obvious ejection for the jam-ref of black jammer. In this situation it may be best to call an OTO, no?

If the JR witnesses an expulsion-level action that does not also require the jam be immediately called off, then your suggestion that the JR inform the HR of the situation after issuing a penalty to the skater is appropriate.  The jam should not be called off prematurely unless there is an appropriate reason for doing so (ie; injury).

Assuming the HR did not also witness the action, most HRs would call the OTO after the jam to speak with the crew as a whole.  It is not unusual for a crew to have multiple opinions, with some advocating for expulsion while others believe the offense warrants only a penalty.

I'm sure there are HRs that would expel a skater based on the word of a single referee, but I would not do so because of this:

[rule]8.3.5 - If an Official is not sure whether an action warrants an expulsion, an expulsion will not be assessed.[/rule]

For me as HR to authorize an expulsion for an action I did not witness requires I have absolute trust in the judgement of the other referee.  While I do trust my referees, I don't have that level of confidence based on a single recommendation. I'd rather wait until the end of the jam then ask the crew for concurring and dissenting opinions.

I'm sure some referees would trust select referees on the basis of their mid-jam recommendation, but I don't see that being common.

Quote
what if the HR is the one to see a penalty like this? How should they eject the skater then?

If the HR witnesses an expulsion-level action AND the HR is 110% certain that the action warrants an expulsion, then the HR can and should process the expulsion right then and there.  (Possible exception: when a blocker is to be expelled and there is less than 30 seconds left in the jam. Why take eyes off the pack when the blocker is sitting in the penalty box for the remainder of the jam?)

In 20+ games as head referee I have expelled three players, one of which was done mid-jam for insubordination (skater deliberately refused to leave the track in response to a penalty, then gave me the middle finger while continuing to refuse to leave the track.)

In another game I almost called a mid-jam expulsion for an egregious stopped block, but didn't have to because the target of the block was injured.  Had the jam continued for some reason, I would have immediately issued the expulsion as it occurred directly in front of me and I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that it was egregious.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline Stray Taco

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 385
  • Stats Sheet: 4
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Derby / Athens Ohio Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2015, 11:34:24 am »
AoS,

I think you've got a great way of working it. The only scenario I'm not sure how I would handle is the one where there's an expulsion-worthy penalty that will end before the jam ends that's not witnessed by the HR. If the jam seems like it will end before the offender leaves the box, then play continues and it can be dealt with by an OTO between jams. But if the jam lasts longer than the penalty, how do you get the expulsion processed? Ending the jam for an OTO to give the expulsion recommendation to the HR interrupts the play, but is there any other way?
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline Axis of Stevil

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 428
  • Stats Sheet: 7
  • Skating in circles since 2012
  • League Affiliation: Garden State Rollergirls and Jerzey Derby Brigade
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2015, 12:52:55 am »
AoS,

I think you've got a great way of working it. The only scenario I'm not sure how I would handle is the one where there's an expulsion-worthy penalty that will end before the jam ends that's not witnessed by the HR. If the jam seems like it will end before the offender leaves the box, then play continues and it can be dealt with by an OTO between jams. But if the jam lasts longer than the penalty, how do you get the expulsion processed? Ending the jam for an OTO to give the expulsion recommendation to the HR interrupts the play, but is there any other way?

There isn't an expulsion to process until the head referee determines that an illegal action warrants an expulsion.  If the head referee does not witness the action and is not sure the action warrants expulsion based on one mid-jam report from another referee, then the correct course of action is to let the skater return from the box at the end of their penalty time and to play out the rest of the jam.

If skaters want to add an option to the rules where a refree can instruct the box to hold a skater until jam end for potential expulsion, then they'll have to vote those rules into the rule set.  At present no such option exists.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline Stray Taco

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 385
  • Stats Sheet: 4
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Derby / Athens Ohio Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2015, 12:59:44 am »
So potentially in that scenario, the skater would return to the jam, then be expelled after the jam ends? Not disagreeing, just making sure I understand correctly.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline Axis of Stevil

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 428
  • Stats Sheet: 7
  • Skating in circles since 2012
  • League Affiliation: Garden State Rollergirls and Jerzey Derby Brigade
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 02:23:08 am »
So potentially in that scenario, the skater would return to the jam, then be expelled after the jam ends? Not disagreeing, just making sure I understand correctly.

Without good reason to expel her mid-jam (ie; me seeing the action and being 150% convinced it warrants expulsion), that's how I would handle it.  Mid-jam isn't a good time to gather all the referees to discuss the situation.  :)

I'm doing a lot of talking here though.  Others should chime in with their thoughts.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline Invader Jim

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Stats Sheet: 3
  • League Affiliation: Naptown Roller Girls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2015, 06:32:52 pm »
So potentially in that scenario, the skater would return to the jam, then be expelled after the jam ends? Not disagreeing, just making sure I understand correctly.

Without good reason to expel her mid-jam (ie; me seeing the action and being 150% convinced it warrants expulsion), that's how I would handle it.  Mid-jam isn't a good time to gather all the referees to discuss the situation.  :)

I'm doing a lot of talking here though.  Others should chime in with their thoughts.

My opinion - It is best not to call a jam unless you really need to stop the game.  I would rather see the jam end naturally then to stop it to discuss an expulsion.   Letting a potentially expelled skater return to play is better than calling a jam, discussing the penalty, and then deciding that the penalty is not actually expulsion worthy.  Keep the game flowing when you can.

Offline llama of death

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 306
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • Referee
  • League Affiliation: Rollling Hills Derby Dames, WheatWhackers (JRDA)
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 08:22:14 pm »
My biggest concern here is egregious penalties. If a skater is violent/hazardous enough to intentionally/egregiously take a dangerous and illegal block like a high block or back block. Then I would rather not continue a jam with that skater returning to the track.

AoS, I do agree completely that if it is a questionable call, at all, then the OTO can wait for between jams.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline BadgerBadger

  • Referee
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 120
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • League Affiliation: Crime City Rollers
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 11:32:22 pm »
My biggest concern here is egregious penalties. If a skater is violent/hazardous enough to intentionally/egregiously take a dangerous and illegal block like a high block or back block. Then I would rather not continue a jam with that skater returning to the track.

I agree in principle, but it would have to be really bad for me to call the jam. If I saw a skater deliberately and maliciously punch an opponent, I would probably call the jam right there and then. For egregious/reckless gameplay... I'd have to have a reasonable fear that it might be repeated (or answered) before the jam ended.

The only real reason to call a jam early for a suspected expulsion is, in my opinion, safety concerns, i.e. a worry that a skater's presence presents a safety threat beyond what can reasonably be expected during a game of roller derby. A skater accidentally falling and slide tackling opponents probably wouldn't qualify in my eyes.

Offline FNZebra

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1408
  • Stats Sheet: 35
  • I'm a shitty ref.
  • League Affiliation: Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Level 2
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2015, 03:27:27 am »
My biggest concern here is egregious penalties. If a skater is violent/hazardous enough to intentionally/egregiously take a dangerous and illegal block like a high block or back block. Then I would rather not continue a jam with that skater returning to the track.

I agree in principle, but it would have to be really bad for me to call the jam. If I saw a skater deliberately and maliciously punch an opponent, I would probably call the jam right there and then. For egregious/reckless gameplay... I'd have to have a reasonable fear that it might be repeated (or answered) before the jam ended.

A referee MUST call the jam for: 8.2.6.2.4 - Fighting.

If a back block/low block/elbow rises to the level of first act of starting a fight ("Oh, sweet baby jeebus!"), then call the jam.

Otherwise, strongly consider letting the jam play out, call the penalty per usual,  then huddle the zebras. Not certain? Skate over/in and tell the HR that you believe something was thumb-worthy. Follow up with that after the jam ends.

A harsh back block from a Jammer coming in too hot is probably different from a Skater taking three hard strides horizontally across the track to severely back block someone with a sudden extension of their forearms.

EDIT: if someone does come out of the Penalty Box, and stirs it up too hard immediately in the same jam, that's when I'm mulling a suspension request, not just an expulsion.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 11:41:24 am by FNZebra »
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline Vanilla VICE

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 682
  • Stats Sheet: 6
  • SC&L
  • League Affiliation: Muscogee Roller Girls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Official Review Mid-jam
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2015, 02:18:28 pm »
So potentially in that scenario, the skater would return to the jam, then be expelled after the jam ends? Not disagreeing, just making sure I understand correctly.

Like Zebra said, if its an action that isn't under the MUST Call off list, then I would wait till the end of the Jam, the last thing you would want to see is an official review on the mid jam decision which is then overturned. That is not only going to make you feel horrible, it will look horrible.
Muscogee Roller Girls: Columbus, GA
FlatTrackStats Mod

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3483
Views: 6312
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2504
Views: 5176
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 2694
Views: 5786
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3478
Views: 5764
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal