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Author Topic: Insubordination, when do you say stop, it's enough?  (Read 3801 times)

Offline watzé

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Insubordination, when do you say stop, it's enough?
« on: October 03, 2015, 07:58:00 pm »
 After a trip of several month in Canada i'm back in France and I started again to officiate in Europe. And I was shocked by the attitude of the french skater. It doesn't change, it's just I forgot.

At the Europen cup only every time the "screamer" was french. I'm really desapointed and sad to see that.

They don't insult but on specific game every call was contested and at the end some many officials feel so bad. They know they're right and you feel so unfair to act like this.

After reading the rule part about that, I was very interressted about the notion of disregard and contemptuous. But it's really not precise.

Where is the limit for you? When did you say to the skate, now you go to far and you deserve a penalty for that?

I don't like the stick method, the next HR/HT I'll do I want to explain to the captain, we are human too, we can do some mistake and we are here for the pleasure like you. So as human you can speak to us during the 30s. 3 conditions for that you must be respectful, the question need to be short and the answer must be yes or no. Like, "You give me a cutting but the initiator touched outside, I cut someone else?"
So if I open the discussion, I will apply the rule like they say. It's seems to be far.
Watzé

Paris rollergirls
Watzegaga@gmail.com

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: Insubordination, when do you say stop, it's enough?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 04:21:40 am »
I guess the question becomes how long do you want to stand there and listen to it.  I always make it a point to let everyone know during the Captains meeting if you want or need my undivided attention they would need to ask for an official review.  If a skater is complaining about a call, no call or whatever, I may give them my attention for a few seconds but if I'm busy I tell them I'm sorry but I have to go, or if I have to skate away I will but I try try not to just skate away but sometimes it happens.  Especially if it's in between jams and I have to get back into position.  I'm a big believer in letting the skater be heard, but I'm also a big into clock management and keeping the game going.  I also make sure to let the JT knows to keep to the 30 seconds if I'm the only one out of position.  I'll get myself back into position in time or call an OTO if needed.  If the skater is not being insubordinate they can yick yak as much as they want, however I may not stick around to hear all of it.   If it every got to a point where they interfered with the start of Jam I guess a Delay of Game could be in order.   

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Insubordination, when do you say stop, it's enough?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2015, 06:58:45 pm »
This does not fall under any of the specified reasons for Delay of Game penalty.
I'm better at remembering "Smasher" is me than "Adam."
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Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Insubordination, when do you say stop, it's enough?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2015, 07:29:00 pm »
I let them know in the Captains meetings they have 5 opportunites to stop the game and talk further. Once the conversation gets lengthy, I just ask if they would like to use a timeout or review, to nicely communicate that I have to begin my pre-jam checks such as counting skaters, etc because that is my primary responsibility pre-jam. Once they stop the game, they I can focus fully on their concerns if that is how they want to use the time.
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Offline llama of death

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Re: Insubordination, when do you say stop, it's enough?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2015, 10:20:47 pm »
What about mid jam? This behavior is not common but does happen from time to time here. Where does shouting at the ref cross the line? If they stay on the track an shout at you? If it is on the way to the box / from the box / bench? Cussing out an official is obvious but where is your personal line as an HR for contemptuous?
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Stray Taco

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Re: Insubordination, when do you say stop, it's enough?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2015, 10:45:22 pm »
What about mid jam? This behavior is not common but does happen from time to time here. Where does shouting at the ref cross the line? If they stay on the track an shout at you? If it is on the way to the box / from the box / bench? Cussing out an official is obvious but where is your personal line as an HR for contemptuous?

I've always tell skaters that they are welcome to complain about the call as much as they want on the way to the penalty box, but if they don't immediately (as in as soon as legally possible per the Glossary) leave the track, they are guilty of insubordination and will be penalized accordingly. Of course, if any language is directed to me as a person as opposed to the call itself, or if the language turns vulger, I'm likely to call insubordination as well.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline watzé

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Re: Insubordination, when do you say stop, it's enough?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2015, 09:34:13 am »
I agree with that but if you look the insubordination rule:

[rule]Insubordination penalties will be given for actions that demonstrate a disregard for the authority of the Officials, whether intentional or not. Examples of Insubordination include, but are not limited to, failure to leave the track for a penalty, failure to leave the track after fouling out, and the use of contemptuous speech directed at an Official.[/rule]

They speak about "contemptuous speech", and when I search for the definition of contemptuous, I found

"- the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn.
 - willful disobedience to or open disrespect for the rules or orders of a court (contempt of court) or legislative body.
 - an act showing such disrespect. "

So it's not concern the language only.

I tried something as HR now, I explain they can ask why they got the call or the no call to the referee directly if it's respectful and he have the time to do that. And the definition of disregard is not really clear and common to everybody/culture so we'll give warning to say "this is the limit"
Watzé

Paris rollergirls
Watzegaga@gmail.com

 

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