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Author Topic: "Block" or "Assist"?  (Read 3405 times)

Offline 50 VinCent

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"Block" or "Assist"?
« on: November 12, 2015, 06:53:06 am »
Situation:
-White blockers, #1 and #2 are in flat wall inside of the track
-Black blocker #3 push  white blocker#2 to inside causing white blocker #1 go to out of bounds
- White #1 made contact only with the white #2
-Black blockers hips was behind white blockers all of the time
-white #1 return to track in front of black #1

Cutting to white #1 or not?

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: "Block" or "Assist"?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 06:57:13 am »
No call -- your scenario is a legal action.

Black Blocker blocked White Blocker 2.  At no time did Black Blocker block White Blocker 1.

Accordingly, White Blocker 1 has a superior position to Black Blocker when she goes out of bounds.  She may therefore re-enter the track in front of Black Blocker without penalty.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: "Block" or "Assist"?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 08:29:24 am »
What Axis of Stevil said, this is a legal action.

What you typically need to watch out for in this type of situation is the out-of-bounds skater cutting other player, e.g. White 1 cutting White 2 and White 3, or Black 2.

Offline derby medic

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Re: "Block" or "Assist"?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 02:55:15 am »
Playing devil's advocate, but...

No call -- your scenario is a legal action.

Black Blocker blocked White Blocker 2.  At no time did Black Blocker block White Blocker 1.

Accordingly, White Blocker 1 has a superior position to Black Blocker when she goes out of bounds.  She may therefore re-enter the track in front of Black Blocker without penalty.

I know several skaters that love to use opposing blockers to their advantage, especially if they can hit an opposing blocker to knock the opposing jammer out of bounds. In this scenario, I feel that black blocker in this manner has effectively blocked both of the white blockers.

[rule]5.1.1 - Blocking is any movement on the track designed to knock the opponent down or out of bounds or to impede the opponent’s speed or movement through the pack. Blocking includes counter-blocking. Blocking need not include contact. Positional blocking is blocking without contact. A skater positioning their body in front of an opposing skater to impede the opposing skater’s movement on the track is positional blocking. Positional blocking need not be deliberate and/or intentional to be illegal, e.g., if the blocking skater is not aware of the Jammer’s position behind the blocking skater.[/rule]

emphasis mine

Conversely if the OP is deemed a legal reentry then consider this...

White jammer is skating on the outside.
White blocker #1 places themselves between white jammer and a potential block from black blocker.
Black blocker initiates block into white blocker causing white blocker to make contact with white jammer pushing white jammer out of bounds.

Can white jammer come back in bounds ahead of black blocker without receiving a cut penalty?
I propose the preposterous to promote and propagate pragmatism.

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: "Block" or "Assist"?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 04:04:19 am »
I know several skaters that love to use opposing blockers to their advantage, especially if they can hit an opposing blocker to knock the opposing jammer out of bounds. In this scenario, I feel that black blocker in this manner has effectively blocked both of the white blockers.

[rule]5.1.1 - Blocking is any movement on the track designed to knock the opponent down or out of bounds or to impede the opponent’s speed or movement through the pack. Blocking includes counter-blocking. Blocking need not include contact. Positional blocking is blocking without contact. A skater positioning their body in front of an opposing skater to impede the opposing skater’s movement on the track is positional blocking. Positional blocking need not be deliberate and/or intentional to be illegal, e.g., if the blocking skater is not aware of the Jammer’s position behind the blocking skater.[/rule]
emphasis mine

Perhaps you have a different mental image than I do, but Black Blocker's hips are behind those of both White Blockers for the entire scenario.  So it eludes me how Black Blocker could be construed to be positionally blocking White Blocker 1.

Conversely if the OP is deemed a legal reentry then consider this...

White jammer is skating on the outside.
White blocker #1 places themselves between white jammer and a potential block from black blocker.
Black blocker initiates block into white blocker causing white blocker to make contact with white jammer pushing white jammer out of bounds.

Can white jammer come back in bounds ahead of black blocker without receiving a cut penalty?

You did not specify where White Jammer's hips are in relation to Black Blocker.  Assuming White Jammer's hips are ahead of Black Blocker's when White Jammer goes OOB, then White Jammer may re-enter in front of both Black Blocker and White Blocker 1 without penalty.

This is essentially the same scenario as the original post, but you're subbing a jammer for a blocker.  The positions of the skaters make no difference.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline derby medic

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Re: "Block" or "Assist"?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2015, 04:30:50 am »
Playing devil's advocate, but...

No call -- your scenario is a legal action.

Black Blocker blocked White Blocker 2.  At no time did Black Blocker block White Blocker 1.

Accordingly, White Blocker 1 has a superior position to Black Blocker when she goes out of bounds.  She may therefore re-enter the track in front of Black Blocker without penalty.

I know several skaters that love to use opposing blockers to their advantage, especially if they can hit an opposing blocker to knock the opposing jammer out of bounds. In this scenario, I feel that black blocker in this manner has effectively blocked both of the white blockers.

[rule]5.1.1 - Blocking is any movement on the track designed to knock the opponent down or out of bounds or to impede the opponent’s speed or movement through the pack. Blocking includes counter-blocking. Blocking need not include contact. Positional blocking is blocking without contact. A skater positioning their body in front of an opposing skater to impede the opposing skater’s movement on the track is positional blocking. Positional blocking need not be deliberate and/or intentional to be illegal, e.g., if the blocking skater is not aware of the Jammer’s position behind the blocking skater.[/rule]

emphasis mine

Conversely if the OP is deemed a legal reentry then consider this...

White jammer is skating on the outside.
White blocker #1 places themselves between white jammer and a potential block from black blocker.
Black blocker initiates block into white blocker causing white blocker to make contact with white jammer pushing white jammer out of bounds.

Can white jammer come back in bounds ahead of black blocker without receiving a cut penalty?

The manner in which I am thinking it would make black blocker the initiator of the block on both of the white players.

[rule]6.11.1 - Returning behind the initiator of the block. When sent out of bounds by a block, an opponent must return to the track without bettering their position in relation to other skaters. Returning to the track from out of bounds in front of the initiator of the block is improving your relative position, regardless of who is in front when the block is executed. An in-bounds skater who forces an opponent out of bounds earns and establishes superior position. A skater may not return in bounds in front of another skater who blocked that skater out of bounds, except under the following circumstances where no penalty is to be issued:[/rule]

emphasis mine

I believe that the white blocker or jammer would have to return behind the black blocker in this case.
I propose the preposterous to promote and propagate pragmatism.

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: "Block" or "Assist"?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2015, 04:50:47 am »
The manner in which I am thinking it would make black blocker the initiator of the block on both of the white players.

[rule]6.11.1 - Returning behind the initiator of the block. When sent out of bounds by a block, an opponent must return to the track without bettering their position in relation to other skaters. Returning to the track from out of bounds in front of the initiator of the block is improving your relative position, regardless of who is in front when the block is executed. An in-bounds skater who forces an opponent out of bounds earns and establishes superior position. A skater may not return in bounds in front of another skater who blocked that skater out of bounds, except under the following circumstances where no penalty is to be issued:[/rule]
emphasis mine

I believe that the white blocker or jammer would have to return behind the black blocker in this case.

I'm glad you're asking questions.  Devil's advocate is a good thing -- one party or the other almost always learns something.  :)

Your bold-faced text would be relevant if White Blocker 1 was, in fact, being blocked out of bounds.

[rule]4.1.1 - “Blocking” refers to any physical contact made to an opponent, and to any movement or placement of one’s body to impede said opponent’s speed of movement (even if no contact is made; this is considered “positional blocking”). This only includes actions and positioning taken during a jam (though other forms of contact may be illegal even if not committed during a jam).

4.1.1.6 - Contact made to teammates is not “blocking.”[/rule]

As per 4.1.1, in neither scenario did the person who went out of bounds do so as a result of a block.  Black blocker never made physical contact with the person who went out of bounds.  Nor did black blocker place her body in such a position as to impede that skater's speed of movement.  All contact with the skater who went out of bounds was made by the white blocker next to her.  And as per 4.1.1.6, this is not a block.    Accordingly, black blocker does not gain superior position on the skater who goes out of bounds.

PS, I think you've been meaning to quote 5.11.1, not 6.11.1 (which doesn't exist).

PPS, I've written enough in this thread.  I'll bow out at this point and let others speak.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline derby medic

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Re: "Block" or "Assist"?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2015, 05:51:02 am »
I apologize for this entire line of questioning. For some reason, when I pulled up the rules on WFTDA, it originally went to an old rule set. All of my information that I based my argument came from that set.

Again, sorry
I propose the preposterous to promote and propagate pragmatism.

 

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