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Author Topic: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer  (Read 6054 times)

Offline The Sharmanator

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Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« on: November 23, 2015, 10:34:14 pm »
A jammer is standing in her correct position on the track with the jammer cover on her helmet.  As she is standing there waiting for the jam to start, the jammer cover just pops off of her helmet and lands on the track behind her.  All this happens without her even realizing it.  Someone tells her what just happened and she bends over and reaches for her cover.  Before she touches the helmet cover the Jam Timer starts the jam.   
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 02:44:49 am by The Sharmanator »

Offline General Hellativity

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2015, 01:10:26 am »
Definitely an inactive jammer.
[rule]2.3.2 A Skater who is serving a penalty from a prior jam in the position of Jammer will be identified as the Jammer for their team. If no such Skater exists, a Skater in possession of the Jammer helmet cover will be identified as the Jammer for their team. If no such Skater exists, one single Skater who is lined up in the Jammer Starting Position will be determined by the Jammer Referee to be the Jammer for their team...[/rule]

If there is no jammer in the box...
And no skater in possession of the star...
But there is one skater lined up as a jammer, then that skater is the (inactive) jammer.

The real question is whether she can pick up the star and become active. It seems pretty clear that she cannot, since the cover is not in her hand or on her head at the jam-starting whistle.
[rule]2.6.6 Helmet covers must be on a qualified Skater’s head, or in a qualified Skater’s hand, before the jam-starting whistle. Helmet covers cannot enter a jam in progress.[/rule]

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2015, 02:49:47 am »
Definitely an inactive jammer.
[rule]2.3.2 A Skater who is serving a penalty from a prior jam in the position of Jammer will be identified as the Jammer for their team. If no such Skater exists, a Skater in possession of the Jammer helmet cover will be identified as the Jammer for their team. If no such Skater exists, one single Skater who is lined up in the Jammer Starting Position will be determined by the Jammer Referee to be the Jammer for their team...[/rule]

If there is no jammer in the box...
And no skater in possession of the star...
But there is one skater lined up as a jammer, then that skater is the (inactive) jammer.

The real question is whether she can pick up the star and become active. It seems pretty clear that she cannot, since the cover is not in her hand or on her head at the jam-starting whistle.
[rule]2.6.6 Helmet covers must be on a qualified Skater’s head, or in a qualified Skater’s hand, before the jam-starting whistle. Helmet covers cannot enter a jam in progress.[/rule]

But you see that's my dilemma.  In my scenario it was on her helmet before the jam starting whistle but not during the jam starting whistle.

[rule]2.6.6 Helmet covers must be on a qualified Skater’s head, or in a qualified Skater’s hand, before the jam-starting whistle. Helmet covers cannot enter a jam in progress.[/rule]

I feel she should be able to pick it up and become an active Jammer.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 11:03:18 pm by The Sharmanator »

Offline General Hellativity

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2015, 11:32:37 am »
I interpret "before the jam starting whistle" as equal to "immediately before the jam starting whistle," or equivalent to "when the starting whistle is blown."

If "before the jam starting whistle" means anything other than that, a skater could argue that they had the star in their hand while sitting on the bench 30 seconds before the whistle, but forgot to put it on when she got up to line up, so she should be allowed to skate off the track to retrieve it. Or that they were the jammer 12 jams ago, and they had the star on then.

Offline SeerSin

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 12:28:54 pm »
She can pick it up and become the active jammer. Referee discretion would apply here, she had the cover on the track and lined up as the jammer. I'm not willing to grant a two minute power jam due to an elastic band snapping. As always discretion depends on the context.

Offline Pol E. Dangerous

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 03:23:48 pm »
She can pick it up and become the active jammer. Referee discretion would apply here, she had the cover on the track and lined up as the jammer. I'm not willing to grant a two minute power jam due to an elastic band snapping. As always discretion depends on the context.

I like this answer; however, how do you defend a decision if there was an official review?
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2015, 03:25:02 pm »
I think Seer's response is definitely consistent with the general idea of:

[rule]2.4.2.3 - If the Jammer helmet cover is removed by an opponent’s action or through the course of natural game play, the Jammer may replace the helmet cover to regain eligibility for Lead Jammer (see Section 2.4.7).[/rule]

i.e., if the helmet cover falls off or is knocked off, you can pick it back up and regain lead status.  If we don't penalize people for the cover unintentionally falling off during the jam, I would think that should extend to lineups within reason.   If the jam starts and the cover is lying on the track next to the jammer having fallen off their head, you could make the argument that it has "entered the jam" in a way that it doesn't if the bench coach throws it in.
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Offline Divide by Zero

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2015, 04:57:42 pm »
She can pick it up and become the active jammer. Referee discretion would apply here, she had the cover on the track and lined up as the jammer. I'm not willing to grant a two minute power jam due to an elastic band snapping. As always discretion depends on the context.

I like this answer; however, how do you defend a decision if there was an official review?

I would "defend" it pretty much the way Seer explained it. Referee discretion, they lined up properly with the cover on and then had it removed by an accident and it wouldn't be fair to grant a two minute power jam for that.

Offline SeerSin

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2015, 09:01:39 pm »
Carefully reasonable discretionary decisions defend themselves. It's okay to say "because this makes sense and is in line with the game of roller derby" or "Granting that request is inherently unfair."

Of course one needs to be extremely cautious using such phrases. For instance it doesn't work if you decide that calling high blocks is unfair and there really should be 6 bench coaches. But when it comes to those little technicalities that have disproportionate consequences I think you'll find most teams will support that discretionary decision.

Offline General Hellativity

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2015, 12:57:23 pm »
I like AdamSmasher's response that allowing her to replace the cover is within the penumbra of 2.4.2.3.

But what if the helmet cover starts out stashed down the skater's jersey instead? This reasoning wouldn't apply then.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2015, 10:39:25 pm »
I like AdamSmasher's response that allowing her to replace the cover is within the penumbra of 2.4.2.3.

But what if the helmet cover starts out stashed down the skater's jersey instead? This reasoning wouldn't apply then.

Nope - in that case, I'd call them a permanently inactive jammer for that jam.
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Offline llama of death

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2016, 05:18:13 am »
 :o wait, so I must be missing something here.

I understand (but don't fully agree with) the idea that a cover cannot be thrown onto the track before the jam begins, but why would it not fit the rules to allow a stashed panty be put on an get lead (or at least become active) if she started with it in her possession and was correctly in position as the jammer.

I feel like this has been discussed before with the ability for a jammer to lineup with the cover in hand, put it on after the jam starts, legally pass all players inbound and upright first and thus get lead. Hell, I remember a version being discussed where she does this while starting in the box.

What did I miss/misunderstand?
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2016, 05:45:57 am »
why would it not fit the rules to allow a stashed panty be put on an get lead (or at least become active) if she started with it in her possession and was correctly in position as the jammer.

[rule]2.6.6 Helmet covers must be on a qualified Skater’s head, or in a qualified Skater’s hand, before the jam-starting whistle. Helmet covers cannot enter a jam in progress.[/rule]
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline llama of death

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2016, 05:50:58 am »
why would it not fit the rules to allow a stashed panty be put on an get lead (or at least become active) if she started with it in her possession and was correctly in position as the jammer.

[rule]2.6.6 Helmet covers must be on a qualified Skater’s head, or in a qualified Skater’s hand, before the jam-starting whistle. Helmet covers cannot enter a jam in progress.[/rule]

Thank you Stevil, I knew I was missing it and wasn't finding it.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Inactive Jammer or not Inactive Jammer
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 06:09:41 am »
There are a lot of rules to remember and it takes time to learn them all.  Even the best referees out there struggle to remember them all.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

 

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