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Author Topic: Knocked out by teammate  (Read 4833 times)

Offline Stray Taco

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Knocked out by teammate
« on: December 05, 2015, 01:52:23 pm »
What happens if a Jammer on an initial pass is knocked out by their teammate, then the Jammer comes back in ahead of that same teammate? 5.11.1, which covers returning in front of the initiator of the block, doesn't cover if the teammate was the initiator, because:

[rule]4.1.1.6 - Contact made to teammates is not “blocking.”[/rule]

So, if it's the teammate that knocks the jammer out, will there be a Cutting NP/NP enforced if the Jammer returns in front of that teammate? Or does it depend on the position of the hips at the time the Jammer goes out?

As far as I can tell, this would only make a difference in the very specific set of circumstances I said above (Jammer knocked out by a teammate during initial pass), and would result in Not Lead Jammer if the pass is completed without going back to legally pass that teammate.
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Knocked out by teammate
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2015, 03:47:01 pm »
[rule]2.4.2.4 - Once a Jammer has completed their initial pass, that Jammer is no longer eligible to re-pass. If the Jammer has not passed all of the Blockers on both teams legally, in bounds, and upright, while wearing the Jammer helmet cover with the stars visible, the Jammer will be declared Not Lead Jammer at this point.[/rule]

Emphasis mine above, but I think this answers the question.
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Offline Stray Taco

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Re: Knocked out by teammate
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2015, 03:49:37 pm »
[rule]2.4.2.4 - Once a Jammer has completed their initial pass, that Jammer is no longer eligible to re-pass. If the Jammer has not passed all of the Blockers on both teams legally, in bounds, and upright, while wearing the Jammer helmet cover with the stars visible, the Jammer will be declared Not Lead Jammer at this point.[/rule]

Emphasis mine above, but I think this answers the question.

Not really. What I was asking was, did she pass the blockers legally if her hips were in front of her teammate's hips when she went OOB?
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Knocked out by teammate
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2015, 03:53:19 pm »
Oh I see - you're asking if it counts as a "pass" if you're blocked out by your own skater, when it automatically does NOT count as a pass when blocked out by an opponent.  How about this?

[rule]5.11.1 - Returning Behind the Initiator of the Block: When put into an out-of-bounds (or straddling) position by a block, an opponent must return to the track without improving their relative position. Returning to the track in front of the initiator of the block is improving one’s relative position, regardless of who is in front when the receiving Skater exits the track. An in-bounds Skater who forces an opponent out of bounds earns and establishes superior relative position. A Skater may not return in bounds in front of an opponent who blocked that Skater out of bounds, except under the following circumstances where no penalty is to be issued:[/rule]

As long as the jammer's hips were *in front* of her teammate's, I'd say that the spirit of 5.11.1 is that it does NOT apply.  As such, I'd give her lead.  But I'd have to be darn sure she really did pass her teammate before she went out.
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Knocked out by teammate
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2015, 05:20:28 pm »
Teammates may be "engaging" (see Glossary) with each other, but they cannot "block" one another (4.1.1.6, quoted in OP).

If the Jammer were in front of their teammate (hips) before going OOB, that is a legal pass of a teammate -- the standard for passing a teammate to earn Lead Jammer is slightly lower than for passing opponents, since 5.11.1 (quoted above) cannot apply when passing a teammate. Section 5.11.1 applies specifically to the initiator of a block, which can only happen to an opponent.
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Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: Knocked out by teammate
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015, 06:34:29 pm »
If the Jammer were in front of their teammate (hips) before going OOB, that is a legal pass of a teammate

But isn't that also true, if it is an opponent? If her hips are in front, while she is still in-bounds, she has legally passed that opponent. If she then goes OOB (as a consequence of a block, regardless if that block was initiated before or after the hips passed), the opponent re-gains superior position by 5.11.1, but the pass is not taken away.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Knocked out by teammate
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2015, 11:54:00 pm »
If the Jammer were in front of their teammate (hips) before going OOB, that is a legal pass of a teammate

But isn't that also true, if it is an opponent? If her hips are in front, while she is still in-bounds, she has legally passed that opponent. If she then goes OOB (as a consequence of a block, regardless if that block was initiated before or after the hips passed), the opponent re-gains superior position by 5.11.1, but the pass is not taken away.

Yes, that is correct.  The pass counts for both scoring and for earning lead jammer status if it happens when the jammer is in bounds.
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Offline Samiracle

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Re: Knocked out by teammate
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2015, 05:36:04 am »
If the Jammer were in front of their teammate (hips) before going OOB, that is a legal pass of a teammate

But isn't that also true, if it is an opponent? If her hips are in front, while she is still in-bounds, she has legally passed that opponent. If she then goes OOB (as a consequence of a block, regardless if that block was initiated before or after the hips passed), the opponent re-gains superior position by 5.11.1, but the pass is not taken away.

Two different things are being discussed in this thread and it is incorrect to try and treat both the same way for teammates and opponents. One is the pass and the other is the re-entry from OOB.

Yes, the pass is legal/counts toward lead status whether it is a teammate or an opponent if the hips pass prior to the jammer touching OOB.

With the jammer subsequently knocked OOB they must re-enter legally to avoid a penalty.

The criteria for legal re-entry is different if the OOB status was caused by an opponent or a teammate:

The opponent regains superior position by 5.11.1 if that opponent was the one that knocked the jammer OOB. This does not apply to teammates (the language in 5.11.1 explicitly only mentions opponents).

Offline llama of death

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Re: Knocked out by teammate
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 05:43:12 am »
Agreed, blockers passed by an upright/inbounds jammer are considered as passed for the rest of the pass (when dealing with points or lead). But do the rules really intend to say that a teammate going OOB having "assisted" their Jammer OOB does not loose their "advantage of position? Should we not be instead discussing how one cannot block their own teammates at all, and thus there is not advantage/disadvantage to be gained?

I just have to mention how dumbfounded I am that I never noticed that the rules require a jammer to pass all blockers including her own in bounds and upright to get lead. We [me and the refs who taught me] have been overlooking this for a long long time I think.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

 

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