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Author Topic: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside  (Read 3876 times)

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« on: December 16, 2015, 04:17:05 pm »
How should an OPR who witnesses an incomplete star pass that may not be visible to the inside communicate the issue to the JR / IPRs? 

We had a scenario in which the JR and IPRs couldn't see the pass and assumed it was legal.  It resulted in the jam going all to hell in a rather ludicrous scenario (see below if you're curious).

Should the OPR yell to the inside it was an incomplete pass?  Skate to the inside if necessary?  Is there a hand signal I should train my crew to use?

Thoughts?

--------------

Here's the ludicrous scenario. 

Please do not address how we should have handled this particular situation.  I include only this for your amusement and to serve as a warning on what can go wrong if incomplete star passes are not communicated to the JR.

Jammer attempts a star pass to the Pivot.  Opposing blockers prevent all visibility from the inside and knock the Jammer down.  Pivot managed to get the cover.  JR/IPRs assume it was a legal pass.  (In reality, it flew about a foot out of the jammer's hand and was caught in the air by the pivot).

The Pivot, forgetting he wasn't supposed to leave the EZ as pivot, races out the front of the EZ.  Jammer ref, believing the Pivot is the new jammer, follows the Pivot around the track.  Pivot enters the EZ from the rear and hands the cover back to the original Jammer.  Jammer then hands the cover back to the Pivot leaving the JR and IPRs wondering if the original star pass had been legal or not and how they should be handling the situation.  This led to an OTO shortly thereafter so we could quiz the two players on what the heck happened.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2015, 05:10:20 pm »
The OPR should use the last entry in the current Verbal Cues document, directed toward the Skater and the Jammer Ref following the still-Pivot.

[rule]VERBAL CUE: “TEAM COLOR, SKATER NUMBER, REMOVE YOUR COVER”
Description: Verbal instruction from an Official to a Skater to remove a Pivot or Jammer helmet cover.[/rule]

"Color, Number, Drop/remove the Jammer cover! You are not the Jammer!" Repeat a few times, and if the still-Pivot doesn't and doesn't return to the pack, then issue an OOP warning to the still-Pivot. If there is still no legal action, then finally issue an OOP penalty for Failure to Return.

Edit: corrected grammar crimes.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 06:00:36 pm by FNZebra »
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FN Zebra
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Offline Darth Bling

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Re: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2015, 05:17:39 pm »
First, the JR should try to confirm with the OPRs if the pass was good.  OPRs can communicate in a lot of non-verbal ways: a shrug, shaking your head no, taping your helmet on the side and pointing to the original jammer, etc.   

If that doesn't work or happen, the OPR can yell to the IPRs and notify them that the jam ref is following the pivot.  The IPRs can then deal with it then.

Or the OPR can skate clockwise in the outline lane to meet the pivot on the other side of track and issue whatever warnings/penalties may be appropriate then.


One thing that can help a lot with this is if the OPRs see a good star pass, they can provide a hand signal to the JR.   No hand signal means the pass was no good or not seen, and the JR should now be suspicious of the pass.


Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2015, 06:39:04 pm »
The OPR should use the last entry in the current Verbal Cues document, directed toward the Skater and the Jammer Ref following the still-Pivot.

[rule]VERBAL CUE: “TEAM COLOR, SKATER NUMBER, REMOVE YOUR COVER”
Description: Verbal instruction from an Official to a Skater to remove a Pivot or Jammer helmet cover.[/rule]

Thanks for responding, but this is not correct.  A Q&A states that if the pivot puts the cover on her head following an incomplete star pass it's a "star pass violation" penalty.  So the OPR would immediately issue a penalty instead of ordering the pivot to remove their cover.

Source: https://wftda.com/rules/qa/star-pass-vs-star-recovery
(see Example 2B)

Either way, it does address the issue once the Pivot is wearing the cover.  That often doesn't happen for a while.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2015, 10:58:26 pm »
While it is not something one would NORMALLY do as an OPR, I think in the case where the not-a-jammer gets all the way out of the engagement zone, the OPR would be justified in issuing a loud "OUT OF PLAY" warning to the not-the-jammer as she left the engagement zone. Upon receiving the relevant confused look from the JR, the OPR could then point back at the still-the-jammer, or use some other non-verbal way of communicating what's going on.

The Out of Play warning should be enough to convey that this person is not a jammer.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 11:00:27 pm by AdamSmasher »
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Offline Mav'Ricky

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Re: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2015, 07:33:11 am »
Might I suggest OPR issue Star Pass Violation penalty to current jammer? The IP hand signal hopefully assists JR/IPR in determining pass was illegal; The IPR can then chase down that pivot and communicate to JR that everything has gone belly up and their jammer is in the box.

Not an ideal solution (and most likely creates issues elsewhere) but it does fix the problem at hand quickly by getting that jammer off the track pronto and hopefully lessening the disadvantage to the other team. 
Be fair. Be clear.

Offline Stray Taco

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Re: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2015, 07:48:25 am »
Might I suggest OPR issue Star Pass Violation penalty to current jammer? The IP hand signal hopefully assists JR/IPR in determining pass was illegal; The IPR can then chase down that pivot and communicate to JR that everything has gone belly up and their jammer is in the box.

Not an ideal solution (and most likely creates issues elsewhere) but it does fix the problem at hand quickly by getting that jammer off the track pronto and hopefully lessening the disadvantage to the other team.
That only works if there was an actual illegal Star pass. In the scenario Stevil describes, there isn't. The Pivot keeps the cover in her hand. It's an incomplete Star pass, but no penalty has occurred.

I personally like the Out of Play warning as soon as the Pivot gets away from the pack. It's a legitimate verbal cue that quickly communicates the situation. And, if she continues on gives a legitimate penalty of Failure to Return.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

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Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2015, 10:31:56 am »
While it is not something one would NORMALLY do as an OPR, I think in the case where the not-a-jammer gets all the way out of the engagement zone, the OPR would be justified in issuing a loud "OUT OF PLAY" warning to the not-the-jammer as she left the engagement zone.

If I call "Out of Play", I would probably add "You're not the jammer" to make it obvious that I am aware of the situation and not just missing the cover in the players hand (or addressing the blocker who is chasing close behind).

Regarding Stevil's original question for a hand signal:
Around here a hand signal for "star pass" that is becoming more and more common (especially among NSOs) is to place a hand near the head with fingers spread out (somewhat resembling a star) and then pulling the hand away from the head. Based on that some people have started to signal "no star pass" by placing the hand as above but shaking their head instead of pulling the hand away.

Offline Mav'Ricky

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Re: Communicating incomplete star passes from the outside
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2015, 10:31:26 am »
Might I suggest OPR issue Star Pass Violation penalty to current jammer? The IP hand signal hopefully assists JR/IPR in determining pass was illegal; The IPR can then chase down that pivot and communicate to JR that everything has gone belly up and their jammer is in the box.

Not an ideal solution (and most likely creates issues elsewhere) but it does fix the problem at hand quickly by getting that jammer off the track pronto and hopefully lessening the disadvantage to the other team.
That only works if there was an actual illegal Star pass. In the scenario Stevil describes, there isn't. The Pivot keeps the cover in her hand. It's an incomplete Star pass, but no penalty has occurred.

I personally like the Out of Play warning as soon as the Pivot gets away from the pack. It's a legitimate verbal cue that quickly communicates the situation. And, if she continues on gives a legitimate penalty of Failure to Return.

My apologies: you're absolutely right!  In that case I agree with your answer about giving an "Out Of Play" warning as being the best thing to do in this scenario.

Thanks!
Be fair. Be clear.

 

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