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Author Topic: Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)  (Read 3035 times)

Offline Destructor

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Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)
« on: December 31, 2015, 01:35:29 pm »
Hi!

I've a doubt about this rule:

[rule]5.1.2 - Any contact to the back of an opponent that forces the receiving opponent out of their established position. This includes forcing an opponent down, out of bounds, or out of relative position.[/rule]

Scene:
Jammer arrives, hits on the tailbone to the rival blocker and pushing forward, not fall, not lose relative position, and jammer no win relative position.

The impact zone is illegal, that's only necessary have to whistle the penalty or only in the scenarios indicated in the rule.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 01:44:56 pm by Destructor »

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2015, 04:08:44 pm »
Your scenario is "no call".

Calling your scenario a penalty is a common mistake, and one I made myself until I was corrected on the issue (the thread is floating around Zebra somewhere).

Established position refers to one's status in their position on the track:  up vs. down, in bounds vs. out of bounds, in the engagement zone vs. out of the engagement zone (commonly called in play vs. out of play), and in a legal starting position vs. not a legal starting position.

The target of the back block was moved forward, but did not experience any change of status, nor did the jammer gain any advantage due to the action.  Hence no penalty.

If the target was moved waaaayy forward or the contact was egregious then an expulsion may be warranted, but I don't think that's what you meant by your scenario.

For more evidence, see example 1a in this WFTDA Q&A.

https://wftda.com/rules/qa/relative-position
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2015, 06:55:51 pm »
Hi!

I've a doubt about this rule:

[rule]5.1.2 - Any contact to the back of an opponent that forces the receiving opponent out of their established position. This includes forcing an opponent down, out of bounds, or out of relative position.[/rule]

Scene:
Jammer arrives, hits on the tailbone to the rival blocker and pushing forward, not fall, not lose relative position, and jammer no win relative position.

The impact zone is illegal, that's only necessary have to whistle the penalty or only in the scenarios indicated in the rule.
The scenario you describe to me appears to be an illegal action.  However it's not an illegal action that has measurable impact to the game.

Illegal action with no impact = No Penalty.
Illegal action with impact = Penalty.

It's that simple.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 12:00:53 am by The Sharmanator »

Offline Destructor

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Re: Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2016, 01:16:28 am »
So this phrase loses all sense,

[rule]Hitting an opponent in the back of the torso, back of the legs, or back of the buttocks is prohibited (see Section 4.2.2 - Illegal Target Zones).[/rule]

because is allowed and tolerated hit the illegal zones, while no have impact.

I understand arguments of AoS when push is part of normal move in game (no blocking intencional), but no i'm agreement when the blocking is intencional to win space, break a wall or push out the track one blocker, although the initiate no win relative position. The physical impact on the body in ilegal zone is totally different is more dangerous for skaters.
With this arguments is legitimize that one skater continue hitting in ilegal zones while no win relative position. Rules need identification correctly what is "permitted blocking " in illegal zones and what is "is prohibited".


Sorry if I'm annoying. But the rules is sometimes no very specific and i no have clear when to be "permissive" and when strict.

Thanks for all help! ^^

Offline General Hellativity

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Re: Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2016, 12:35:57 pm »
Section 4 explains what blocking actions are illegal. Section 5 explains what the consequences are of illegal actions. In section 5, the idea behind assessing a penalty is generally to correct for an unfair advantage that one team has gained over another. If no unfair illegal advantage was gained, a penalty generally isn't given. Instead, the illegal action is labeled "No Impact / No penalty." If you're looking for a place where the rules specifically spell out what blocking to the back is a penalty and what is not, when to be strict about back blocks and when to be permissive, then section 5.1 is your place.

In other words, to receive a penalty a skater usually must do something that (A) is illegal, and (B) results in an unfair advantage. Some of the examples you're giving, like illegally back blocking an opponent off the track ARE penalties.

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2016, 04:48:10 pm »
In other words, to receive a penalty a skater usually must do something that (A) is illegal, and (B) results in an unfair advantage. Some of the examples you're giving, like illegally back blocking an opponent off the track ARE penalties.

Hellativity is simplifying, but it's worth explaining in full.

To be called on a penalty, a skater/bench staff/team must...

1) Do something which is illegal
2) The illegal action must do one or more of the following:
-- a) Confer an unfair advantage
-- b) Risk someone's safety
-- c) Disrupt the flow, integrity, or structure of the game

All penalties fit into the above model.  Some fall into more than one category.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2016, 05:11:55 pm »
Section 4 explains what blocking actions are illegal. Section 5 explains what the consequences are of illegal actions. In section 5, the idea behind assessing a penalty is generally to correct for an unfair advantage that one team has gained over another. If no unfair illegal advantage was gained, a penalty generally isn't given. Instead, the illegal action is labeled "No Impact / No penalty." If you're looking for a place where the rules specifically spell out what blocking to the back is a penalty and what is not, when to be strict about back blocks and when to be permissive, then section 5.1 is your place.

In other words, to receive a penalty a skater usually must do something that (A) is illegal, and (B) results in an unfair advantage. Some of the examples you're giving, like illegally back blocking an opponent off the track ARE penalties.

Sorry I'm missing something, but section 4 and section 5 of what?

Offline General Hellativity

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Re: Question about Back Block 5.1.2 (1 Jan 2015)
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2016, 06:24:57 pm »
Sorry, should have said *Chapters* 4 and 5. Of da Rulez.

 

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