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Author Topic: Skating for a leauge and Refing?  (Read 4098 times)

Offline MidKnight Justice

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Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« on: February 04, 2016, 02:36:18 pm »
I was asked a question by a skater wanting to know if she could also Ref. I have heard and seen other skaters Ref and other Ref skate with a team but what are the guide lines? I tried to see if WFTDA had anything about this on there site but could not find any information. Another Ref and I where talking while trying to explain as long as its not a conflict of interest it should not be an issue. Also the league she skates with is not yet even an apprenticeship league, it should be fine as long as she is not Refing her own team mates during games? I know plenty of teams that will use teammates during there own inter-league scrimmages to help Ref but where is the line once there is other teams involved. We could be wrong, we could be right, or maybe there is no set guide lines. Does anyone know or have more information about this?

Offline Kabong

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2016, 02:52:13 pm »
Kabong
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Offline MidKnight Justice

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2016, 02:58:40 pm »
Thanks I just got done reading this :-) Has much changed since 2013?

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2016, 04:18:58 pm »
One thing I'd add.  If a skater-ref is HRing a game, it should be disclosed in advance of the game.  I know a league that showed up to a mock sanctioned game only to be told the HR for the game was the home league's coach -- he was taking the evening off from coaching.  The visiting league felt like they were blindsided, and said later had it been a formal sanctioned game they would have objected to his status as head referee.

In this case, what really pissed off the visiting league was that they felt like they had no recourse and no way to investigate their rights in this situation.  Complaints go to the HR who is the subject of their conflict of interest complaint.  In a real sanctioned game they would have wanted to contact WFTDA sanctioning in advance to discuss whether his participation as HR was appropriate or not.  (It may very well have been, but they did NOT like the feeling of being railroaded in the situation.)

The HR disclosing conflicts of interest well in advance of a game is probably a good idea for many issues.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline MidKnight Justice

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2016, 04:41:53 pm »
Yes I wouldn't feel as a Ref comfortable with a coach being a head Ref for there own teams game. Just because to many people could look at it that way even if there judgement is sound.

Offline Stray Taco

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2016, 05:10:42 pm »
One thing I'd add.  If a skater-ref is HRing a game, it should be disclosed in advance of the game.  I know a league that showed up to a mock sanctioned game only to be told the HR for the game was the home league's coach -- he was taking the evening off from coaching.  The visiting league felt like they were blindsided, and said later had it been a formal sanctioned game they would have objected to his status as head referee.

In this case, what really pissed off the visiting league was that they felt like they had no recourse and no way to investigate their rights in this situation.  Complaints go to the HR who is the subject of their conflict of interest complaint.  In a real sanctioned game they would have wanted to contact WFTDA sanctioning in advance to discuss whether his participation as HR was appropriate or not.  (It may very well have been, but they did NOT like the feeling of being railroaded in the situation.)

The HR disclosing conflicts of interest well in advance of a game is probably a good idea for many issues.
Would that disclosure be made to a league rep? I'm actually coming up against something similar. I was asked to HR a shenanigans scrimmage, then they added a game before the scrimmage against a brand new league so they could get a first game in. My wife's in that league. I have no issue with her being there and will have no issue staying unbiased (We used the be the HR and coach in the same league), but I should probably disclose that just to cover my bases. It's two non-member leagues, one with zero bouts and the other with about a year of bouting, so it's not a lot on the line but I like to keep things above board.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2016, 06:46:58 am »
I was asked to HR a shenanigans scrimmage, then they added a game before the scrimmage against a brand new league so they could get a first game in. My wife's in that league. I have no issue with her being there and will have no issue staying unbiased (We used the be the HR and coach in the same league), but I should probably disclose that just to cover my bases.

I guess at the point when you realize a COI situation has manifested, you could disclose it to the people in charge of staffing... Does that make sense? In any case, I would also communicated it to both teams, and probably withdraw if either of them objected.

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2016, 08:24:09 am »
I guess at the point when you realize a COI situation has manifested, you could disclose it to the people in charge of staffing... Does that make sense? In any case, I would also communicated it to both teams, and probably withdraw if either of them objected.

Or have someone else HR the game and take another ref position instead.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2016, 01:51:55 pm »
I'm still of the opinion that it should be avoided. Especially if you are the same gender as the skaters you are reffing, as that creates conflicts of interest.

The main reason I say to avoid it is that both disciplines require an enormous investment of time and often require differing points of view to excel. It is difficult to excel as either a skater or a referee. Doing both makes it exceptionally difficult to excel at either of them, even if you would normally be great in one or both of them.
I have only known of one person who has ever been very successful as both a skater and a referee.
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Offline Divide by Zero

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2016, 02:15:49 pm »
Especially if you are the same gender as the skaters you are reffing, as that creates conflicts of interest.

How is the gender relevant?

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2016, 05:29:34 pm »
It is interesting to consider how we compare "skater for team A reffing for team A" with Taco's "spouse  / significant other for team A skater reffing Team A."

The issue being that while the first is comparatively rare, if we eliminated the second, I conservatively estimate we'd drop the ref pool for most games in half or more.  As far as I can tell, that's one of the two main sources of new refs, with the other being people who start fresh meat and then decide for whatever reason that they don't want to play.  Certainly for lower level games, I can usually identify a big chunk of the officials as involved with skaters.

Is this, in theory, not the best idea?  I suppose, although I've never felt particularly biased reffing my wife's team.  But I don't see how it could possibly be avoided without crippling the ref supply.
I'm better at remembering "Smasher" is me than "Adam."
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2016, 06:32:23 pm »
I think the more important thing to do is to reveal any possible COI if the optics might be considered poor by someone not in the pre-game meeting. (Read that as "Someone not in the meeting would be making snide comments or outright allegations & accusations on Bookface about Soandso officiating that game because....")

Genuine COI most certainly should be disclosed, at least to the HR, who probably should also mention it in the pre-game meeting, if they decide to let that Official remain on the crew.

A preliminary email might be a good thing, too.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Skating for a leauge and Refing?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2016, 08:52:29 pm »
Especially if you are the same gender as the skaters you are reffing, as that creates conflicts of interest.

How is the gender relevant?

The gender is relevant because a male skater reffing women's derby doesn't generate the same conflict of interest as a female skater reffing women's derby. By officiating teams that may in some way affect outcomes for your team (including for games your team isn't involved in), you have a COI.

The conflict of interest is the lesser of my points though. The bigger point is that it is extremely difficult to do both well.
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