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Author Topic: Not sure about a point  (Read 3210 times)

Offline Blowtooth

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Not sure about a point
« on: February 13, 2016, 04:04:14 pm »
Hello,

Rules say that if you're not 100% sure about a penalty, you don't call it. But what about the points?

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: Not sure about a point
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2016, 01:09:09 am »
Same

Offline SeerSin

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Re: Not sure about a point
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2016, 03:15:01 pm »
Any time you don't award a point you should have a concrete reason as to why.

Offline Lucas

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Re: Not sure about a point
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 10:21:46 am »
Interesting question, that made me thing over the week-end. I don't think the rules explicitely spell this out, so this is only my own personnal theory on the rules.

First, about call/nocall: the fact that a skater is going to the PBox is slightly disruptive of the gameflow. The fact that a skater is staying on the track is not. Obviously, if the penalty is warranted, the skater should go to the PBox. But this asymmetry explains why we should go with the nocall when there is a doubt: a mistaken call is unfair and interferes with gameflow. A mistaken no call is only unfair, so that's better (less worse). (I'm fully aware that the rules explicitely tell us to. I'm explaining why I don't think we can extend this to points, one way or the other)

There is no such asymmetry with scoring: giving one too many point is equally unfair as giving one less point, and neither is really interfering with gameflow. Therefore, in my opinion, we shouldn't have a default (either on giving point by default, or not giving them). I've not really thought about that before your question, and wasn't JR this week end, but I think I tend to go with the most likely.

@Seer Sin, what is a "concrete reason"? Is "I'm not sure her hips passed the opponent's hips (but they might)" OK?

(Edited for clarity a few times)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 10:37:52 am by Lucas »

Offline Seb

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Re: Not sure about a point
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 11:30:00 am »
Hi !

Nice question, BT.

I'ld be more like The Sharmanator. IMHO, we can follow the chronology :
 - we start with point "not granted"
 - we give point as soon as we (or an other official) see it

While doubting about a point, you didn't reached the level where you can grant it. So the point stays in its previous status : not granted. I'ld be conservative and say "unless someone is 100% sure there's a point, don't give a point".

Basically :
 - Seer : if you think there's a point, give it
 - Me : if you're not sure there's a point, don't give it
 - Lucas : we don't have a default pathway

I may be wrong, especially on my analysis of Seer & Lucas posts. Feel free to correct me :)

Offline Blowtooth

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Re: Not sure about a point
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 07:15:58 pm »
With an example like a jammer losing their cover in the middle of the pack, I (as JR) notice it only after a few seconds; since I can't be sure when the Jammer lost it, I understand that I would award the points for the passed opponents until the moment I noticed it.
But with an example like Lucas said: "I'm not sure they passed the hips" (variations can be made with "while in bounds", "before the fourth whistle", "before committing a penalty", "before removing the cover", etc.), should I go with no point then?

Offline Invader Jim

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Re: Not sure about a point
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 03:58:41 pm »
But with an example like Lucas said: "I'm not sure they passed the hips" (variations can be made with "while in bounds", "before the fourth whistle", "before committing a penalty", "before removing the cover", etc.), should I go with no point then?

Ask an OPR or other ref for clarification if they had a better perspective. If they give nothing then make the call.

If you can't tell if they started straddling before or after they passed the hips, give the point.  Generally if you are not sure whether or not something was done legally assume it was done correctly. 

Offline Blowtooth

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Re: Not sure about a point
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 08:31:33 pm »
Ok, many thanks all!

Offline SeerSin

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Re: Not sure about a point
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2016, 09:19:23 pm »
The concrete reason I was thinking of involves the jammer completing a pass. Meaning if your jammer exits the pack and you don't have 4 points you should know why(or 5 if the opposing jammer is in the box or a lap point was indicated).

In the scenario where the jammer runs to the outside and gets blocked out somewhere during the 4 whistles while the jammer ref's view is obscured by the blockers it gets a little trickier. Ideally you check with the OPR who was perfectly in position at just the right time to see everything. Of course sometimes it doesn't work out that way because the OPR got slide tackled or was busy making another call. In that case do your best with the information you have. There's no defaulting to no-call with points like there is with penalties. Really though you should be pretty darn sure before awarding points. I also think this is an appropriate use of an official timeout if needed. Assemble all the refs, get the best information and then make the call.

 

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