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Author Topic: Official review of a bad verbal cue  (Read 3448 times)

Offline whistles@grrrls

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Official review of a bad verbal cue
« on: March 03, 2016, 03:46:50 am »
0
If you're going to make a mistake a scrimmage is a good time and place to make that mistake.  So I picked the perfect time to make one. 

Last week at a scrimmage a black blocker (let's say black 123) initiated a clockwise block.  There was a change in relative position.  I whistled, did the correct hand signal and called "Black 123 direction of play".  Black 123 hightailed it to the penalty box, stayed for 30 seconds, and life was good.

Good until the jam ended and the team captain called an official review.  The captain pointed out that the verbal cue is "clockwise block", not "direction of play".  Oops, feeling a bit sheepish.  None of the facts were in dispute, everyone agreed it was a clockwise block and everyone agreed that the verbal cue was wrong.

If she had stayed on the track and had gotten an insubordination then 5.14.3.1 would have gotten her out of the insub.  But she did leave the track immediately so that wasn't an issue.
 
My question, in that situation, what should the result of the official review have been? 

Offline RawShark

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2016, 04:25:02 am »
+1
My personal practice is to summarise the review just before I go talk to my crew, to confirm that I understand what they're asking for.
e.g. "If your review is successful, Blue Jammer 42 will be sent to the box for a Cutting penalty."

In this case, I would have asked the Captain - "What is your intended outcome from this review?"
She's pointed out that an officiating error has been made, but hasn't said what should be changed as a result.

Offline whistles@grrrls

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2016, 03:21:58 pm »
+2
The scrimmage was somewhat formal, full NSO and ref crew, and mostly WFTDA regulations.  We had one main deviation from the rules, that is an unlimited number of official reviews.

I talked a bit with the captain last night.  Basically there were two desired outcomes for the review.  The stated desired outcome was to take away the penalty from the skater's count.  The unstated desired outcome, and probably the real one, was to help me learn not to do that.

Offline Bob Humbug

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2016, 09:39:24 pm »
+1
If she committed the foul, there is no basis to remove the penalty.
Sounds like the primary intention was humiliation. Not exactly the most welcome of learning environments, but effective, I suppose.
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Offline whistles@grrrls

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2016, 09:55:31 pm »
0
Sounds like the primary intention was humiliation. Not exactly the most welcome of learning environments, but effective, I suppose.

You can never know what goes on in the mind of another, but I don't think she intended humiliation.  And if she did intend that, she failed.   ;)

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2016, 01:25:01 am »
+1
As far as handling the review, the verbal cue was incorrect, tell them what the cue should have been.

The penalty occurred and so the actual decision being challenged is unchanged.


They get their minimum of one minute clock stoppage, but the review is not retained since the decision being reviewed was correct.

Offline Divide by Zero

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2016, 08:15:46 am »
+1
the review is not retained since the decision being reviewed was correct.

I'm not sure I agree. The decision being reviewed is not the penalty call but the verbal cue. The verbal cue was objectively wrong. The rules state that the review will be retained if an "officiating error was made in relation to the objection". Is failing to use the correct verbal cue when assessing a penalty an officiating error? I would probably say so.

I'm not sure which way I'd actually go with this if it happened.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
1.11.2.1 - If, during a team’s first Official Review of the period, a review of an Official's decision is requested and the Head Referee determines that an officiating error was made in relation to the objection, the team will retain its Official Review.

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2016, 08:45:03 am »
0
Let's take this to the extreme for a second. Suppose a team takes an OR to complain about an IPR calling OoP warnings in Swahili, and the team is getting penalties because they don't understand the warnings. Would this be a reasonable thing to take an OR over? I say yes. Can we agree that an officiating mistake was made? I say yes. Should the team be allowed to retain their review? I say yes.

So what about a much more minor case, with no impact? Someone saying "Cut Track" instead of "Cutting"? Can or should we "deny" reviews with the motivation that the officiating mistake was so inconsequential? I think we probably should. I fear the alternative is stuff like this becoming common as a way for teams to get a longer break out of an OR, and still retaining their review.

Offline Divide by Zero

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2016, 11:44:27 am »
+3
I fear the alternative is stuff like this becoming common as a way for teams to get a longer break out of an OR, and still retaining their review.

That hinges on the officials using incorrect verbal cues though. That strategy will only be possible to begin with if the officials mess up.

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2016, 05:03:43 pm »
+1
The verbal cue is not an officiating decision.

Calling the penalty was the decision.

As the penalty was upheld, the decision did not change.


Online Major Wood

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2016, 06:14:03 pm »
0
I agree with Sho here.

I'll give a different (made up) scenario:

A jammer referee is following a jammer as she enters the pack. She goes to pass the star, but it was a fake pass. The jammer referee thought it was completed and begins to follow the pivot. They realize a few seconds later and return to the jammer.
Official review is called, stating that the jammer referee incorrectly followed a skater who was not the jammer and therefore was not watching the jammer, which is their duty.

There was an officiating error made, corrective feedback given (adjust position to better see the handoff, better communication from pack referees). However, I would not allow them to retain there review, as there was nothing about the game that was adjusted.

The officiating error should be in relation to the objection. The officiating error should not be the objection itself.
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Offline SPECIAL EDwin

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2016, 04:43:13 am »
0
By the wording of1.11.2.1 I would feel I had to allow the team to retain it's O.R. for that period, because an error was, in fact, made by an official (per 8.2.5.1 and 8.2.5.2.1).  I would not overturn the penalty because the call was valid though inspecific.  The penalty would stand and the captain will have wasted game time for no good reason while losing it's chance to retain a future O.R (for that period). In making this decision I would feel rather crappy for violating the spirit of the rules by  (IMO) wasting game time on frivolity but would feel correct in adhering to the letter of the law because, well, we have a rule book for a reason and it's not my place to ignore the parts I don' t like. After all, the captain and team may feel it's a perfectly valid reason for an O.R. and I would not want to be disrespectful.
 

Offline Stray Taco

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 10:59:01 am »
0
By the wording of1.11.2.1 I would feel I had to allow the team to retain it's O.R. for that period, because an error was, in fact, made by an official (per 8.2.5.1 and 8.2.5.2.1).  I would not overturn the penalty because the call was valid though inspecific.  The penalty would stand and the captain will have wasted game time for no good reason while losing it's chance to retain a future O.R (for that period). In making this decision I would feel rather crappy for violating the spirit of the rules by  (IMO) wasting game time on frivolity but would feel correct in adhering to the letter of the law because, well, we have a rule book for a reason and it's not my place to ignore the parts I don' t like. After all, the captain and team may feel it's a perfectly valid reason for an O.R. and I would not want to be disrespectful.

I agree with Wood and Sho. I think this is a time where the intent of the rules must be considered, and strongly disagree that the captain wasted game time "for no good reason". For the team there's a very good reason: it's a free timeout. Basically a captain could choose to call an OR for an incorrect procedural issue, have no changes made, and retain their OR.

As has been pointed out, the intent of an OR is to create a different outcome from an incorrect official's decision. Pointing out a procedural error that has no outcome beyond an acknowledgement that it was incorrect has no impact and IMO the team shouldn't retain their OR because it quickly becomes a way to abuse the system.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
1.11.1.3 - During the Official Review, the Captain and/or Designated Alternate requesting the review may request to have an Official's decision reviewed.

In this paragraph, and throughout the OR section, the emphasis is on having an Official's decision reviewed, not a procedure. Official decisions - especially on penalties - have no recourse during the game. If the penalized Skater doesn't act on the erroneous call, they earn an Insubordination penalty. But a Skater doesn't have to leave the track if an Official doesn't give the correct verbal cue. And even though there was an error, it has no impact and no outcome, so shouldn't result in a retained OR.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 11:11:15 am by Stray Taco »
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Offline llama of death

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2016, 05:49:41 pm »
0
The line being exemplified by example:

OPR 1 calls "Whistle, Black, 03, Tripping"
Black 03 looks to the OPR, OPR repeats the call as above
Black 03 1 initiates a new block
OPR 1 issues an insub
Black 03 reports to box for her insub

OR is called Black wants to review the error of the verbal cue, claiming their skater should be released and have both penalties removed.
HR deliberates and informs the C/A the verbal cue was in error but was in response to a correct call, therefore the low block will stand but the in-sub will be removed.
OR is not retained as the implied premise of the review was correct: 'the verbal cue was wrong so no penalty exists'


VERSION 2: Same actions as above but different OR request

OR is called, Black wants to review the insubordination call as the verbal cue was incorrect the skater was not required to leave the track.
HR deliberates and informs the C/A the insubordination was not valid as an incorrect verbal cue was issued. Black retains their OR.


The first version works out the same regardless of the presence of the insub, as the insub was not the topic of the review.

Is it our job to ensure C/A do not waste their OR on asking unwinnable or invalid ORs?

« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 05:56:23 pm by llama of death »
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Official review of a bad verbal cue
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2016, 11:13:29 pm »
+3
I would expect the review to be retained in both examples.

The determination was that an error occurred in the action being reviewed.
The remedy wasn't all that the team wanted it to be, but the decision that the incorrect verbal cue meant that an insubordination should not have been issued is directly related to what they wanted reviewed.


For the question at the end:

It isn't the job of the officials to try to second guess the time management decisions of teams.
However, the team is required to ask for the review of a reviewable decision if they want to use their review as a review.

If the team comes up and asks for something that cannot be reviewed and they do so promptly, it would be a nice thing, but not a required thing, to allow them to switch the review to one of their team time outs.  But don't be surprised if they decline the offer, especially in the first period.


 

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