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Author Topic: Mouthguard and dentures  (Read 10734 times)

Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2016, 08:38:44 am »
This is what i am getting at...
a skater without a hand is unable to wear a wrist guard but the skater in the OP does not want to wear the dentures so that a mouth guard can be used.

Why is deciding not to wear a prosthetic hand different from deciding not to wear prosthetic teeth?

Belcifer

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 09:28:33 am »
This is what i am getting at...
a skater without a hand is unable to wear a wrist guard but the skater in the OP does not want to wear the dentures so that a mouth guard can be used.

Why is deciding not to wear a prosthetic hand different from deciding not to wear prosthetic teeth?

really? i have never seen such a level of nitpicking as in this thread...

never in the previous posts have the use of a prosthetic hand been raised.
Given the information from the OP the skater did not want to use  dentures but have them.

Should we then start to force skaters to wear multiple mouth guards and several helmets?

Offline Hans Oferbach

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2016, 12:56:27 pm »
I believe the "wrist guards" argument to be somewhat misguided as a response to not really noticing the nuances of the plural. The ruleset also states "helmets" but you don't make a Skater wear a minimum of 2. "Wrist guards", like "helmets", refers to all skaters, not the individual, as does "Mouthguards". You wear a wrist guard for each of your wrists, and a Mouthguard for each of your mouths...  In the case of Mouthguards, One is enough. Zero is not.
Keep turnin left...

Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2016, 01:18:41 pm »
really?

Yes, that was a serious question. (And it has nothing to do with the plural used in the rules.)

Several people in this thread have said that 9.1.2 is a rule that we have to apply to the letter, with no official's discretion allowed. (Stray Taco in #3, llama in #8 and #13, you in #10) Now you say, that in case of a missing hand, such official's discretion is suddenly allowed. But I can't see, how the situations differ:

Any injury risk mouthguards are claimed to reduce is not present or similarly reduced, when the player has no teeth:
  • She obviously can not lose or break her teeth.
  • There is no chance of her teeth injuring someone else (or her lips) on contact.
  • The claimed reduction of concussion risks comes from dampening the impact, when the teeth hit each other. The impact of gums is already dampened.

So the only reason requiring the player to wear a mouthguard is because we have to abide by the letter of the rules.
But then we also have to require her to wear a wrist guard, even if she has no hand, because otherwise we would be deviating from the letter of the rules. So if she needs to wear a prosthetic hand to wear a wristguard, we have to require her to do that, just as we do with the dentures. And if she doesn't have a prosthetic hand (that is suitable for roller derby), we can't allow her to play.

Offline bmd (2113)

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2016, 01:39:43 pm »
Regarding the number of wrist guards worn, the metric that makes the most sense to me was explained as "does the skater have a wrist guard on all of their wrists?" If the answer is yes then they meet the requirement.

I think the same applies here  - "does the skater have a mouth guard in all of their mouths?"

9.1.2 says nothing about "teeth guards."
Alex Cline
bmd (2113)
Cincinnati Rollergirls

Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2016, 03:29:14 pm »
So french speaking players don't need a "protège-dents" (literally: teeth guard), if they don't have teeth? And which body part do we count to determine the number of helmets needed by a player?

I think it is better to go by the body part that is to be protected by the piece of equipment rather than the part it is named after in english. This still fits with your metric for wrist guards, but it makes a difference for mouth guards.

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2016, 03:46:04 pm »
While it might make sense in this particular situation to allow a skater without teeth to play without a mouth guard, I very much doubt many head referees would be comfortable making that call, since it would go against the WFTDA rules and Safety Protocol. This could in theory mean making an otherwise Sanctioned game non-regulation, but more worryingly for US officials, my understanding is that it could mean WFTDA insurance may not cover the skater in question and if an injury would occur, it could conceivably open up the bout organizers (and possibly the referee?) to legal action. I'm not from the US and I don't know much about WFTDA insurance or US law, but that's what I've been told. It may be a lesser concern for a non-WFTDA game in a less litigious country with lower health care costs.

So, in the absence of a clear statement from WFTDA that skaters are not required to wear protective gear for body parts that they don't have, I think it's understandable if officials would be very hesitant to make decisions on their own to exempt skaters. Even if it seems to make sense.

And honestly, personally I have no idea what would make sense. Does a mouth guard help protect other things than teeth? It it safer to have dentures and a mouth guard than no mouth guard? Can a skater with just one arm safely play roller derby, and still appropriately protect themselves when falling? I don't consider myself qualified to answer any of these questions. So if I had to make a decision on the track as head referee, I'd be forced to weigh the principle of "safety first" against the principle of inclusion, and in that case I'd have to go with safety, i.e. enforcing the rules strictly.

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2016, 04:19:02 pm »
Lets please watch tone. This discussion is fine, but I've read a couple posts where the tone can be read as hostile. Please be aware of how others might read your words.

Carry on.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline llama of death

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2016, 07:05:21 pm »
While it might make sense in this particular situation to allow a skater without teeth to play without a mouth guard, I very much doubt many head referees would be comfortable making that call, since it would go against the WFTDA rules and Safety Protocol. This could in theory mean making an otherwise Sanctioned game non-regulation, but more worryingly for US officials, my understanding is that it could mean WFTDA insurance may not cover the skater in question and if an injury would occur, it could conceivably open up the bout organizers (and possibly the referee?) to legal action. I'm not from the US and I don't know much about WFTDA insurance or US law, but that's what I've been told. It may be a lesser concern for a non-WFTDA game in a less litigious country with lower health care costs.

So, in the absence of a clear statement from WFTDA that skaters are not required to wear protective gear for body parts that they don't have, I think it's understandable if officials would be very hesitant to make decisions on their own to exempt skaters. Even if it seems to make sense.

And honestly, personally I have no idea what would make sense. Does a mouth guard help protect other things than teeth? It it safer to have dentures and a mouth guard than no mouth guard? Can a skater with just one arm safely play roller derby, and still appropriately protect themselves when falling? I don't consider myself qualified to answer any of these questions. So if I had to make a decision on the track as head referee, I'd be forced to weigh the principle of "safety first" against the principle of inclusion, and in that case I'd have to go with safety, i.e. enforcing the rules strictly.

This is a very well articulated version of my thoughts on the matter. I would ask WFTDA-I to weigh in and give us an option. Until then mouth-guards required despite the fact that I seriously doubt a normal mouthguard would have any positive effects on the saftey of a skater wearing dentures.

Now also interesting would be the input of an orthodontic surgeon/ER/researcher with information on the effects of such a situation, risks, and possibly a customized solution.

Maybe dentures that are designed to fulfill the intended role of a mouth-guard (regardless of if it actually improves saftey, IE: cushion only helmets like the sweatsaver)
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Noah Fence

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Re: Mouthguard and dentures
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2016, 10:46:56 pm »
I have refereed a game where there was a skater with no teeth, top and bottom. She wore a mouth guard as per the rules, and informed the referees before the game. The mouth guard that she had was one of those bulky ones that don't mold, and she didn't wear it with her dentures, to avoid possible breakage or a wire getting jammed into her palate. Between her situation, the rule 9.1.2, and common sense, the best solution would be to refer said skater in the OP to an orthodontist for correct protective gear. The skater's solution in my example worked quite well for her particular scenario, albeit a temporary one, and only applicable with no teeth. It hindered her ability to communicate with her teammates during a jam, but that is the team's problem, not the referees'.
Currently head referee for Loco City Derby Girls of Lodi, California.
Formerly a referee/NSO with Vette City Roller Derby from Bowling Green, Kentucky.

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