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Author Topic: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches  (Read 8965 times)

Offline derby medic

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Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« on: May 15, 2016, 06:07:02 am »
I am a little confused on the wording within the safety protocol regarding benches and the penalty box.

[rule]2.2. No structures, speakers, lights, or other objects shall project into the track area within
10 feet overhead of the skating surface and 15 feet surrounding the track.[/rule]

The way I read this would mean originally that nothing should be within 15 feet of the track, however,

[rule]2.3.1.2. If no wall, or other barrier is present, a minimum of 10 feet of
clearance is required.[/rule]

this (as it applies to our track) along with:

[rule]2.3.1.5. Team benches and the penalty box may be located outside of the
track. Team bench areas must be located outside the Outer Track Safety Zone.[/rule]

this make me think that the benches and penalty box can be within the 15 foot zone so long as they are outside the minimum 10 foot Outer Track Safety Zone.

Which is it?
I propose the preposterous to promote and propagate pragmatism.

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2016, 03:38:45 pm »
I think any "structures" that are part of the game and track setup - penalty box, team benches, inside white board - are implicitly exempt from 2.2.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2016, 04:09:48 pm »
No, that isn't accurate, @BB.

Structures (hard things, like benches or chairs, and also the seats of penalty box) must all be minimum 15 feet back from the outer edge of the track, IF the game is covered by WFTDA insurance. This is per the Safety Protocol document.

Audience trackside seating (but not hard chairs) may be at the edge of the safety lane, if the lane is a full 10 feet wide. Again, presuming WFTDA insurance coverage is needed.

This is based on conversations with members of the Risk Management committee, and adjustments I and others have made to these areas around the track at multiple Playoffs venues, under their oversight. This has also included shifting team benches further away from the track edge, after the halftime swap, and teams adjusting chairs to their preferred methods.

Remember that if you're playing under a different insurance provider, then this may vary, along with the units of measurement.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2016, 04:15:34 pm »
... IF the game is covered by WFTDA insurance ...

I believe this is also true for all sanctioned games, regardless of the insurance.
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Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 04:33:27 pm »
Agree with FN & Wood: 5' for barriers. 10' for audience people. 15' for objects(in this case benches and chairs).

In the new sanctioning policy document following the safety protocol is a requirement if I remember correctly.
Muscogee Roller Girls: Columbus, GA
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Offline theMadStatter

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 07:05:05 pm »
So if a track is laid out in a hockey arena (85' wide) centered in the middle of the rink (as they often are), and there is approximately 26.5' from the middle to the edge of the track (at the center between the jammer and pivot line where the center of the box would be).  Add in the 15' required between there and the edge of the chair gives us 41.5'.  There is only 42.5' between middle of the arena and the boards, which gives a whole 1 foot for chair and box staff (and the average folding chair is 1.5' deep). [ Note that this makes things even worse for the team at the jammer line, since they won't even have space for a chair - you pretty much have to skew the track so the outside edge is parallel to the boards instead of the inside - because otherwise that end is 2' closer to the boards than it is at the pivot line]

So if you skew it to make room for jammer line team benches, and move the center over 5 feet and leave a 2 foot walking space along the back straight, that gives you 5 feet from the front of the chairs to the boards (so approximately 3.5' for box staff behind 1.5' of chairs).  So it can fit, just probably not the way most leagues do it...



Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 07:43:21 pm »
So if a track is laid out in a hockey arena (85' wide) centered in the middle of the rink (as they often are), and there is approximately 26.5' from the middle to the edge of the track (at the center between the jammer and pivot line where the center of the box would be).  Add in the 15' required between there and the edge of the chair gives us 41.5'.  There is only 42.5' between middle of the arena and the boards, which gives a whole 1 foot for chair and box staff (and the average folding chair is 1.5' deep). [ Note that this makes things even worse for the team at the jammer line, since they won't even have space for a chair - you pretty much have to skew the track so the outside edge is parallel to the boards instead of the inside - because otherwise that end is 2' closer to the boards than it is at the pivot line]

So if you skew it to make room for jammer line team benches, and move the center over 5 feet and leave a 2 foot walking space along the back straight, that gives you 5 feet from the front of the chairs to the boards (so approximately 3.5' for box staff behind 1.5' of chairs).  So it can fit, just probably not the way most leagues do it...

Some leagues are rotating their track 2' clockwise so the outside track boundaries are parallel to the walls of a rectangular building (or ice rink in your case). This allows more safety space in turns 2 & 4.
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 08:59:42 pm »
Our league has done the layout in the hockey rink both ways (boards parallel to the inside edge of track, boards parallel to outside edge). Both NSOs & Refs reported the latter was sub-optimal, as it works against your peripheral vision & affected positioning in the middle. So we don't use that layout anymore.

Inside edge parallel now, and the track is pushed back to make more room for the box & benches. This means there is no way for the audience to move from turns 1&2 to the other seating area in 3&4 while on the floor surface. At least not during the games. They may use other doors to get there, or move there before/between games. There is a path there past the bleachers on the other side of the boards, but not during B-Cup (corner by turn 3 is turned into a "locker room" with curtaining).

And yes, the Safety Protocol must be followed as a condition of Sanctioning:
https://wftda.com/sanctioning/requirements

Nice catch, Wood.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline llama of death

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2016, 09:32:23 pm »
Wow, then by this I have never been to a game or venue, in my area where it was set up like this... hmm. Example: team benches are commonly within the 15' distance.


Only place I think I may have seen a track set like this in person is Rose City, but I am not sure... cause the barriers where definitely within 5' and the chairs where definitely within 10 feet of that... Dunno maybe I am wrong....

Maybe a home ref from various leagues could enlighten me how they fit this rule into their venue which are often very tight.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2016, 07:33:15 pm »
Wow, then by this I have never been to a game or venue, in my area where it was set up like this... hmm. Example: team benches are commonly within the 15' distance.


Only place I think I may have seen a track set like this in person is Rose City, but I am not sure... cause the barriers where definitely within 5' and the chairs where definitely within 10 feet of that... Dunno maybe I am wrong....

Maybe a home ref from various leagues could enlighten me how they fit this rule into their venue which are often very tight.

Most venues I have seen have met this requirement.
One way to make this work in some venues is to shrink the safety lane on the opposite straightaway from the benches, in order to provide more room for the benches to move away from the track boundary.
Another way I have seen leagues handle this issue is to put the benches on one of the turns. I personally hate this solution, but sometimes there isn't really a better way.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline llama of death

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2016, 06:20:53 pm »
2.3.1.1.1. Approved barriers are fixed to the floor (unmoving), and a
minimum height of three feet.

Definitely haven't seen that before. Even on streaming bouts with barriers.

My question is: Is this a part of the rules to which I should (when HR) be attending? Or is this the host leagues/venues issue?

How does it effect me and my other refs to have a venue where track layout does not match the Protocols?

Does this mean I/Others should quit/refuse reffing per the risk of injury [not covered by WFTDI]?

What does this mean for my responsibility as a ref/HR to have venues where these rules are not possible to follow for the host league, per their need to cover event costs via occupancy?

Furthermore, why is this even still in there if we don't do gear checks?
4.6.2. Officials will verify that skaters’ protective gear is in compliance with the
WFTDA Rules before a bout.
4.6.3. Officials will check that protective gear is worn and in place prior to each
period.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 09:47:19 pm by llama of death »
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2016, 08:37:13 pm »
I'm posting this on behalf of WFTDA Insurance.

Quote
the safety protocol requirements are being sited as "Rules" in the first post - this is not correct, they are not WFTDA rules, they are safety protocol requirements.

Quote
2.2 pertains to structures. No structures (including benches, chairs, etc) may be within 15 feet of the track.   2.3.1.2 refers to a minimum of 10 feet of clearance required before your track side seating may begin (trackside seating can start at 10 feet from your track boundary). We are aware the wording has caused some confusion, and we are clarifying this information in the next revision, hopefully out later this year.  Several leagues that have not had the space to comply with the 15 foot requirement have built a wall to surround their track. That's one solution.

The safety protocols have always specified that if you don't have a wall surrounding the track, you must have 15 feet of clearance surrounding the track - and benches and the penalty box should located at 15 feet. There's a lot of activity going on in those areas - you need more clearance than ten feet.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline derby medic

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2016, 11:25:35 am »
I'm posting this on behalf of WFTDA Insurance.

Quote
the safety protocol requirements are being sited as "Rules" in the first post - this is not correct, they are not WFTDA rules, they are safety protocol requirements.

Quote
2.2 pertains to structures. No structures (including benches, chairs, etc) may be within 15 feet of the track.   2.3.1.2 refers to a minimum of 10 feet of clearance required before your track side seating may begin (trackside seating can start at 10 feet from your track boundary). We are aware the wording has caused some confusion, and we are clarifying this information in the next revision, hopefully out later this year.  Several leagues that have not had the space to comply with the 15 foot requirement have built a wall to surround their track. That's one solution.

The safety protocols have always specified that if you don't have a wall surrounding the track, you must have 15 feet of clearance surrounding the track - and benches and the penalty box should located at 15 feet. There's a lot of activity going on in those areas - you need more clearance than ten feet.

I apologize, I cited them as rules only to make them stand out. I am sorry for the confusion this may have caused.
I propose the preposterous to promote and propagate pragmatism.

Offline llama of death

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 09:56:12 pm »
Thank you Wood for clarifying that the protocols are not rules.

Does anyone know or have an opinion on the following?:

Is this the host leagues/venues issue, not the refs?

How does it effect refs and players to have a venue where track layout does not match the Protocols?

Does this mean I/Others should quit/refuse reffing per the risk of injury [not covered by WFTDI]?

What does this mean for my responsibility as a ref/HR to have venues where these rules are not possible to follow for the host league, per their need to cover event costs via occupancy?

Many spaces I know are used could never hope to fit all of these protocols, particularly the 15' issue. That would mean one cannot have chairs or benches for players muck less fans in most if not all the venues I have worked at including a very well known teams home track.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Safety protocol for penalty box and benches
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2016, 06:24:31 pm »
Thank you Wood for clarifying that the protocols are not rules.

Does anyone know or have an opinion on the following?:

Is this the host leagues/venues issue, not the refs?

How does it effect refs and players to have a venue where track layout does not match the Protocols?

Does this mean I/Others should quit/refuse reffing per the risk of injury [not covered by WFTDI]?

What does this mean for my responsibility as a ref/HR to have venues where these rules are not possible to follow for the host league, per their need to cover event costs via occupancy?

Many spaces I know are used could never hope to fit all of these protocols, particularly the 15' issue. That would mean one cannot have chairs or benches for players muck less fans in most if not all the venues I have worked at including a very well known teams home track.

I have also wondered the HR's role is in a Sanctioned game that doens't meet protocol. I know the teams can contest the game with sanctioning, but I have no idea what the HR is supposed to do. Would you not sign an IGRF cuz the game wasn't protocol? (or something like that)
Muscogee Roller Girls: Columbus, GA
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