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Author Topic: Official Review Discussion  (Read 2604 times)

Offline derby medic

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Official Review Discussion
« on: May 29, 2016, 11:56:53 am »
I was a coach for Low Down Throw Down, and had this situation occur:

Red Jammer (RJ) was knocked out of bounds by Black Blocker 1 who stayed in-bounds, upright, and with the pack. Black Blocker 2, who had superior position to RJ, skated in non-derby direction to try to draw a track cut on RJ. Black Blockers 3 and 4 were down. RJ returned to the track ahead of BB2, but did not get called for a track cut. instead, BB2 got a penalty for destroying the pack approximately 1-2 seconds after the jammer had re-entered the track. No pack was not called during this time.

After the jam, I asked for an official review. I started to discuss multiple events and was told I could only review one thing. If I was correct with the first review then I could use my second review immediately for something else.

I first reviewed the penalty given to BB2 as BB1 was part of the pack, the pack was never destroyed, thus making BB2 in play. I was correct and the penalty was removed from BB2. Then I used my second review to get the track cut penalty on RJ for cutting BB2 who was now confirmed to have been on the track legally when RJ returned. After review I was informed that while RJ may have returned in front of BB2, the officials could not "in good faith" penalize her for acting upon the officials directions in the jam.

I did not question it at the time and returned to my bench content with what had occurred, but now I want some feedback please.

1)Per 1.11.1.3.4, The head referees decision is final, but can there be a little bit of discussion? For example, in the second review, the HR stated that RJ had acted based upon the officials directions, but could I remind him that RJ had re-entered prior to any indication that doing so was legal?

2) To me these two reviews seem to be so dependent on each other that could they have technically been a part of the same review? There is no directly listed set limit to items available in a review, but it is vaguely referenced as a singular item per review. Can more than one item be reviewed at one time?

Thank you!!

I propose the preposterous to promote and propagate pragmatism.

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: Official Review Discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2016, 02:50:43 pm »
I don't think I'm totally understanding the second part of the question.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it doesn't matter if there is a pack or not.  The RJ still has to enter in behind the BB if that skater had superior position??

[rule]5.11.2.2 - An upright and skating Skater who returns completely in bounds (having previously been out of bounds) in front of at least one in-bounds and upright Skater during a No Pack scenario, which results in the offending Skater having improved their relatives position.[/rule]

Addition: As unfair as it may feel to you the answer to your question "Per 1.11.1.3.4, The head referees decision is final, but can there be a little bit of discussion?" is no.  Once the decision of the HR is made it has to be final.  If not, it could "and would by some" be debated right there on the track.  The decision by this point had been made and the game needs to continue.  This is why it's so important that your OR is clear and precise.  It's the only opportunity a Captain or Alternate has to state their case.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 03:08:16 pm by The Sharmanator »

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Official Review Discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2016, 07:14:06 pm »
Quote
RJ had re-entered prior to any indication that doing so was legal?
Often times during the game a penalty has occured and it is several seconds later to enforce it fully. Because of this time gap, it will be possible to re-enter in front of someone before you know they were penalized. It takes good officiating communication and trust to be able to communicate the status of the penalized person after the fact to try to get things right live.

What your really asking here (and correct me if im wrong) :
Quote
Can more than one item be reviewed at one time?
No, but it can have related decision also corrected.

[rule]1.11.1.3.3 :The Head Referee will then investigate the review with the other Officials, and use the information gathered to render a decision on the item under review, as well as related decisions.[/rule]

I believe you are asking if the cut can be remedied under this rule in addition to the OOP penalty under this rule. For me the answer is yes, if this overturn makes another penalty impossible to have occurred right after it, then IF THE OFFICIALS can recall that specifically then I believe the rules give them power to overturn both with the second being a related decision under the same Official Review. If the offiicals never called no pack, and issued a penalty, I'm not sure what information they were giving that would make the jammer think they could in good faith re-enter infront of the recycler. Even then having said that, I still agree with what the officials came up with. The time gap in the enforcement, followed by the overturn, creates alot of new information the jammer wouldn't have.

There are some caveats with "related decisions" FOR EXAMPLE: I know there is a consensus that says if you challenge to have a jammer penalized, you then cannot take away the points they earned after the fact.

I will also add that it is common for referees to hold OOP Pack Penalties if they feel reformation is imminent. This is because they are prioritizing timing "pack is here" where 'here' lines up with the packs reformation timing. If a destroying the pack penalty would disrupt this timing, then most officials will hold the enforcement, to keep the definition correct, and then enforce the penalty after the pack reforms (usually 2-3 seconds later). I hope this helps.

TLDR: You can only challenge one thing, but related decision can be changed too. I would be hard pressed to grant your second review unless I really felt we had all the recalled information 100% correct.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 07:31:10 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline derby medic

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Re: Official Review Discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2016, 11:23:28 am »

Addition: As unfair as it may feel to you the answer to your question "Per 1.11.1.3.4, The head referees decision is final, but can there be a little bit of discussion?" is no.  Once the decision of the HR is made it has to be final.  If not, it could "and would by some" be debated right there on the track.  The decision by this point had been made and the game needs to continue.  This is why it's so important that your OR is clear and precise.  It's the only opportunity a Captain or Alternate has to state their case.


I completely understand and agree, but now I am going to play devils advocate a little...

If this:

[rule]1.11.1.3.3 :The Head Referee will then investigate the review with the other Officials, and use the information gathered to render a decision on the item under review, as well as related decisions.[/rule]

Then may a coach request consideration of the related decisions during the review? To make this easiest we will use the reviews  in the OP and label the first one as X and the second as Y.

Could a coach ask, "I would like to officially review X, and please consider Y as it relates to X?"<---This is similar to 2 items for 1 review

Or could a coach officially review X and when the HR informs them of the decision, could the coach ask if they considered Y as it relates to X? <---This is questioning the HR's "final" decision

Or does a coach only get to review X and pray that the refs remember Y as well? <--- while I know this should be the correct answer, it seems to only work at certain times because refs forget things from time to time.

I propose the preposterous to promote and propagate pragmatism.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Official Review Discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2016, 04:09:14 pm »
I would advise you use the first option. Ask HR to consider what you think is a related decision before they conference with the other officials, that way they can collect that information too from the other officials and return to the C & A with a resolution that is in sync for both items. That is great question by the way.
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