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Author Topic: One Point or Two Points  (Read 11933 times)

Offline The Sharmanator

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One Point or Two Points
« on: June 07, 2016, 09:07:11 pm »
Scenerio:

    Green Jammer is on a scoring pass and scores on one opposing blocker and then legally passes the star to their pivot.  The pivot does the now so popular star stash and does not immediately place the cover on her helmet as she tries to work through the pack.  While she is working her way through the pack as the inactive jammer, one opposing blocker is sent to the box and the jam ends without the inactive jammer ever putting the jammer cover on their helmet.  How many points should green jammer be awarded?   
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 09:09:04 pm by The Sharmanator »

Offline Stray Taco

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2016, 09:20:30 pm »
My thought is this (emphasis mine):
[rule]2.3.3 - An inactive Jammer is any Jammer who is not wearing the Jammer helmet cover with the stars visible, for any reason. An inactive Jammer has the advantage of all Jammer abilities except scoring points (Section 7 - Scoring) and earning Lead Jammer status (Section 2.4 - Lead Jammer). Inactive Jammers are not considered Blockers.[/rule]
Because there was no active Jammer from the time of the penalty to the end of the jam, there would be no NOTT point earned. If she'd put on the helmet cover at any time before the end of the jam, she would earn a NOTT point since one Blocker in the pack had already been passed in that scoring pass.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

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Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2016, 02:10:18 am »
My thought is this (emphasis mine):
[rule]2.3.3 - An inactive Jammer is any Jammer who is not wearing the Jammer helmet cover with the stars visible, for any reason. An inactive Jammer has the advantage of all Jammer abilities except scoring points (Section 7 - Scoring) and earning Lead Jammer status (Section 2.4 - Lead Jammer). Inactive Jammers are not considered Blockers.[/rule]
Because there was no active Jammer from the time of the penalty to the end of the jam, there would be no NOTT point earned. If she'd put on the helmet cover at any time before the end of the jam, she would earn a NOTT point since one Blocker in the pack had already been passed in that scoring pass.

I'm not so sure about that Taco.  Based on 7.2.1.1  NOTT points are scored immediately when the jammer scores the first point on any opposing blocker in each scoring pass.  Prior to the legal star pass the jammer had already scored a point on an opposing blocker thus IMHO allowing the current jammer to be awarded points on any opposing player which is sent to the box during that same scoring pass.  At the same time I would not award points to that inactive jammer for any on the track player they may have passed before putting on the cover but I'm leaning towards awarding the NOTT points.   

[rule]7.2.1.1 - The Jammer earns a Not-On-the-Track (NOTT) point for each opponent who is not on the track immediately upon scoring the first point on any opposing Blocker in each scoring pass, including those opposing Blockers who are still physically on the track but have been directed to the Penalty Box. If the jam ends before the Jammer scores, said additional points will not be awarded. The following are examples of points the Jammer will earn in this manner:

7.2.1.1.1 - Opponents in the Penalty Box.

7.2.1.1.2 - Opponents who have been assessed a penalty sent to the Penalty Box (even if they are still on the track).
[/rule]


Offline Invader Jim

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2016, 09:18:41 pm »
Wow a -2!  Can someone back me up here because I believe this is how this scenario should be handled.  Any higher level ref's agree with me on this?  If this is not the case then a lot of referee's are awarding NOTT points that shouldn't be awarded.  I'm pretty sure NOTT points are handled differently then scoring on the the track points.  Once a jammer has leagally scored on an opposing blocker she has automatically earned any NOTT points which could result in that scoring pass.  I don't believe it matters if the jammer cover is on her helmet or not or if there was or was not a legal star pass with the new jammer playing hide the cover as she tries to get through.  They automatically get the NOTT points from that scoring pass because the teams active jammer had already scored on one opposing player.

I think a jammer loses the capability to earn any points when she is not wearing the cover.  It does not make a difference if they are points for passes or NOTT points.  No cover means no points.  Once she puts it on the NOTT point would be added but if the jam ends without her putting it on then the potential NOTT points are lost.

[rule]An inactive Jammer has the advantage of all Jammer abilities except scoring points (Section 7 - Scoring)... [/rule]

NOTT points are part of section 7, therefore, no cover means no points.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2016, 09:22:44 pm »
What your asking I don't think has a high level consensus. Some people believe they get points and others don't. I know its not a fun answer but I think people are doing this both ways. I don't think the rules really support either way. I've seen the "are NOTT points cumulative or 'all on one blocker triggered' brought up before but I don't think there is any heavy majority or rules committee ruling either way.

There is a SPIRIT OF THE RULES based argument that would say the reason NOTT points were put into place were to prevent the persons from denying their eligibility for their point by getting a penalty on purpose.

The rules contradict each other. If you believe the previous jammer earned the right to the point before the stash then those people I think are awarding it. If you think the person can deny the point while the cover is off then you don't.  I'm not sure what to say other than not everyone agrees. Sharm there are people that think you can't ever deny a NOTT point once the point has been triggered via section 7.

What do I think? I don't know.
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Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2016, 09:57:26 pm »
Sharm there are people that think you can't ever deny a NOTT point once the point has been triggered via section 7.

What do I think? I don't know.

Vice,  Yes I'm in the camp that once the NOTT point has been triggered via section 7 they will get the points.  You obviously are saying it better then I am in my scenario and conclusion. LOL!! 

Sharm

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2016, 10:52:43 pm »
Sharm there are people that think you can't ever deny a NOTT point once the point has been triggered via section 7.

What do I think? I don't know.

Vice,  Yes I'm in the camp that once the NOTT point has been triggered via section 7 they will get the points.  You obviously are saying it better then I am in my scenario and conclusion. LOL!! 

Sharm

I am curious what Kabong's opinion would be.

Offline derby medic

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2016, 05:47:09 am »
I may be completely wrong here, but these are my thoughts on this scenario:

An active jammer earns NOTT immediately upon scoring their first point. When the jammer in this scenario scored her first point, there was no NOTT point yet. The jammer then removed her own ability to score points when she removed the helmet cover. The blocker receives a penalty and is sent to the box and had there been an active jammer on the track, she would give up her point as well. In order for the jammer to score her point though, I think she has to be active to do so. I would say that in the OP the jammer has earned only one point.

To me it is similar to rule 7.2.1.3 where a penalized jammer can score a point on a penalized blocker if they return to the track prior to the blocker and all other conditions are met. The only difference is in 7.2.1.3 the jammer is penalized, and in the OP the jammer is inactive. Otherwise I would treat them the same.
I propose the preposterous to promote and propagate pragmatism.

Offline General Hellativity

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2016, 02:00:55 pm »
I am in the "Cannot score with helmet cover off" camp. I agree with all the arguments that have been given to not score such a point. I also want to point out the impossibility of changing past history. I don't think that when an opponent is penalized that this means that we rewrite history to claim that 30 seconds ago, when the jammer passed her first blocker, she ALSO earned a point for someone who we later learned would earn a penalty. And if the point didn't happen in the past when her helmet cover was on, it cannot now happen in the present when it is off. I think the jammer will earn that point when she puts the cover back on.

I have always believed that 7.2.1.1 has been poorly worded and doesn't really say what we all know it to mean. It is definitely NOT true that all NOTT points are earned "immediately upon scoring" the first blocker point: some NOTT points (like a skater who will be penalized in the near future) aren't even off the track yet. Clearly, when a jammer's helmet cover is on, she doesn't score until BOTH conditions are met: an opponent is off the track, AND she has otherwise scored a blocker point.

There is nothing that explicitly says when a NOTT point is earned, but I believe that 7.2.1.1.4.1* strongly implies my interpretation. It says:
[rule]7.2.1.1.4.1 Opponents who have removed themselves from the track will be scored upon as though they were on the track (but out of bounds) until it has been determined they have removed themselves from play...[/rule]

In other words, in this particular case, we are told that the NOTT point happens at a particular time other than "immediately upon scoring the first point," specifically, when it has been determined that the opponent is not returning to play. I think that the implication is clear that other jammer-already-scored-on-first-blocker NOTT points are scored at the moment the opponent exits the track, not retroactively in the past. Thus, it cannot be earned when the helmet cover is off.

*And with this, I think I win Stevil's game.

Offline Stray Taco

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2016, 02:08:04 pm »
I can definitely see both sides of this, but I fall in the same camp as GH.  I see that passing of the first Blocker making the Jammer eligible for all NOTT points during that pass. But, as GH said, the future points aren't awarded at that time, but at the time they apply (like when a Blocker commits a penalty). Since 2.3.3 specifically says an inactive Jammer can't score points, they can't score NOTT points. But if the cover is returned to the helmet (or put on the helmet of the Pivot-made-Jammer), then all conditions are met and the NOTT point is earned.

If I hit this situation as a JR, that's how I'd score it. But if the HR said to score it the other way through either their own decision or an HR, I'd go with it. And if the other JR disagreed with me, we'd have a cage match to decide who gets to be right.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

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Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2016, 02:13:36 pm »
To those in the no point camp: What would you do for a Jammer who is in the box on a scoring pass, which then has an opposing unscored blocker sit while they are sitting. By rule they would earn the points upon legal re-entry to the track. What if their cover is off when they step on? Would you give the point? If you wouldn't, what if the cover was on while they were in the box, and then off when they step on?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 02:15:09 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Stray Taco

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2016, 02:23:22 pm »
To those in the no point camp: What would you do for a Jammer who is in the box on a scoring pass, which then has an opposing unscored blocker sit while they are sitting. By rule they would earn the points upon legal re-entry to the track. What if their cover is off when they step on? Would you give the point? If you wouldn't, what if the cover was on while they were in the box, and then off when they step on?
If their cover was off when they stepped onto the track, I wouldn't award the point. But as soon as the cover is returned to their helmet, I'd award the point. But, like the point in this discussion, I wouldn't hold too tightly to that scoring if overruled by HR/circumstances. This is enough of a grey area that I'd follow my standard for consistency, but would adjust for consistency within a game/tournament when instructed otherwise.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

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Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2016, 06:07:56 pm »
To those in the no point camp: What would you do for a Jammer who is in the box on a scoring pass, which then has an opposing unscored blocker sit while they are sitting. By rule they would earn the points upon legal re-entry to the track. What if their cover is off when they step on? Would you give the point? If you wouldn't, what if the cover was on while they were in the box, and then off when they step on?

Also, what if they are in the box for an illegal star pass attempt and the cover is in turn 2 and they are sitting in the box?  Take into consideration that they scored on one blocker prior to the botched star pass. 

[rule].2.1.3 - Points for opponents who have not yet been scored upon in an incomplete scoring pass by a penalized Jammer, who themselves are penalized while the Jammer is serving penalty time, will be awarded to the penalized Jammer upon the Jammer’s legal in-bounds re-entry onto the track in the same jam, or upon passing any opposing Blocker (if their re-entry was illegal). If the jam ends before this occurs, points for those opponents will not be awarded. The Jammer may still earn those points by legally passing those opponents in the same jam.[/rule]

2.1.3 does not specify active vs inactive jammer but just as the penalized jammer.

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 06:11:09 pm »
I am in the "Cannot score with helmet cover off" camp. I agree with all the arguments that have been given to not score such a point. I also want to point out the impossibility of changing past history. I don't think that when an opponent is penalized that this means that we rewrite history to claim that 30 seconds ago, when the jammer passed her first blocker, she ALSO earned a point for someone who we later learned would earn a penalty. And if the point didn't happen in the past when her helmet cover was on, it cannot now happen in the present when it is off. I think the jammer will earn that point when she puts the cover back on.

I have always believed that 7.2.1.1 has been poorly worded and doesn't really say what we all know it to mean. It is definitely NOT true that all NOTT points are earned "immediately upon scoring" the first blocker point: some NOTT points (like a skater who will be penalized in the near future) aren't even off the track yet. Clearly, when a jammer's helmet cover is on, she doesn't score until BOTH conditions are met: an opponent is off the track, AND she has otherwise scored a blocker point.

There is nothing that explicitly says when a NOTT point is earned, but I believe that 7.2.1.1.4.1* strongly implies my interpretation. It says:
[rule]7.2.1.1.4.1 Opponents who have removed themselves from the track will be scored upon as though they were on the track (but out of bounds) until it has been determined they have removed themselves from play...[/rule]

In other words, in this particular case, we are told that the NOTT point happens at a particular time other than "immediately upon scoring the first point," specifically, when it has been determined that the opponent is not returning to play. I think that the implication is clear that other jammer-already-scored-on-first-blocker NOTT points are scored at the moment the opponent exits the track, not retroactively in the past. Thus, it cannot be earned when the helmet cover is off.

*And with this, I think I win Stevil's game.

I disagree.  The new jammer gets all of the rights and privileges of the previous jammer after a successful legal star pass.  If not why would they get to keep the points the previous jammer had? 

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2016, 06:46:02 pm »
To those in the no point camp: What would you do for a Jammer who is in the box on a scoring pass, which then has an opposing unscored blocker sit while they are sitting. By rule they would earn the points upon legal re-entry to the track. What if their cover is off when they step on? Would you give the point? If you wouldn't, what if the cover was on while they were in the box, and then off when they step on?
If their cover was off when they stepped onto the track, I wouldn't award the point. But as soon as the cover is returned to their helmet, I'd award the point. But, like the point in this discussion, I wouldn't hold too tightly to that scoring if overruled by HR/circumstances. This is enough of a grey area that I'd follow my standard for consistency, but would adjust for consistency within a game/tournament when instructed otherwise.

Hmmm..    Don't understand the logic Taco?  Based on your interpretation of the rules the inactive jammer cannot score the NOTT points when the cover is off.  Why would putting it on after the fact now allow the jammer to be awarded the point/s?  The cover was still off when the infraction occured, also when awarded the penalty and also when the opposing blocker/s were sent to the box.

 

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