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Author Topic: One Point or Two Points  (Read 11568 times)

Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2016, 09:18:51 pm »
Hmmm..    Don't understand the logic Taco?  Based on your interpretation of the rules the inactive jammer cannot score the NOTT points when the cover is off.  Why would putting it on after the fact now allow the jammer to be awarded the point/s?  The cover was still off when the infraction occured, also when awarded the penalty and also when the opposing blocker/s were sent to the box.

What Taco proposes is that jammer J scoring a NOTT point on an opponent O has 3 conditions:
  • J must have scored on at least one opposing blocker in the current scoring pass
  • O must be (considered) NOTT
  • J must be active (and not in the box)
Once all 3 conditions are satisfied, the NOTT point is awarded.

What you are proposing is that only conditions 1 and 2 apply.

The rules explicitly describe the case where condition 1 is the last one to be satisfied (at this time condition 3 will always also be satisfied). There is also no disagreement for the case when condition 2 is the last one to be satisfied. The case we are discussing here is when condition 3 is the last one to be satisfied.

Personally, I side with Taco as my understanding of the rules is that  2.3.3 has no exceptions.

Offline Kabong

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2016, 11:48:27 pm »
Sharm there are people that think you can't ever deny a NOTT point once the point has been triggered via section 7.

What do I think? I don't know.

Vice,  Yes I'm in the camp that once the NOTT point has been triggered via section 7 they will get the points.  You obviously are saying it better then I am in my scenario and conclusion. LOL!! 

Sharm

I am curious what Kabong's opinion would be.

Is this a test to see if I really do check ZH constantly, because...

I've got to side with 2.3.3 delaying NOTT points. I actually don't even think I would've hesitated on that in-game, so I'm glad you bring this up. Dirty-word-spirit-of-the-rulesing, NOTT points historically, in my understanding, came to be because skaters must be scorable and not able to save their points by being off the track. If an inactive jammer can't earn OTT points in their normal manner (passing), they should also be denied NOTT in their normal manner (auto-trigger-box fun, etc). By extension, an inactive jammer returning to the track should not be granted NOTT point(s) via 7.2.1.3 (this rule number is burned into my brain).

This is a wonderful conversation. I present my opinions as fact, but, you know, they might not be.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 05:53:13 pm by Kabong »
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Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2016, 12:39:05 am »
Hmmm..    Don't understand the logic Taco?  Based on your interpretation of the rules the inactive jammer cannot score the NOTT points when the cover is off.  Why would putting it on after the fact now allow the jammer to be awarded the point/s?  The cover was still off when the infraction occured, also when awarded the penalty and also when the opposing blocker/s were sent to the box.


What Taco proposes is that jammer J scoring a NOTT point on an opponent O has 3 conditions:
  • J must have scored on at least one opposing blocker in the current scoring pass
  • O must be (considered) NOTT
  • J must be active (and not in the box)
Once all 3 conditions are satisfied, the NOTT point is awarded.

What you are proposing is that only conditions 1 and 2 apply.

The rules explicitly describe the case where condition 1 is the last one to be satisfied (at this time condition 3 will always also be satisfied). There is also no disagreement for the case when condition 2 is the last one to be satisfied. The case we are discussing here is when condition 3 is the last one to be satisfied.

Personally, I side with Taco as my understanding of the rules is that  2.3.3 has no exceptions.

Sorry but where does 7.2.1.3 say

J must have scored on at least one opposing blocker in the current scoring pass (Check yep, it say that.
O must be (considered) NOTT (Check yep, that's correct)
J must be active (and not in the box) (Hmm other than not being in the box it doesn't say that)
Once all 3 conditions are satisfied, the NOTT point is awarded. (doesn't say this either)

I agree it says two of three you are proposing but nothing about having to be an active jammer. 

[rule]7.2.1.3 - Points for opponents who have not yet been scored upon in an incomplete scoring pass by a penalized Jammer, who themselves are penalized while the Jammer is serving penalty time, will be awarded to the penalized Jammer upon the Jammer’s legal in-bounds re-entry onto the track in the same jam, or upon passing any opposing Blocker (if their re-entry was illegal). If the jam ends before this occurs, points for those opponents will not be awarded. The Jammer may still earn those points by legally passing those opponents in the same jam.[/rule]

Offline General Hellativity

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2016, 12:59:31 am »
I agree it says two of three you are proposing but nothing about having to be an active jammer. 

7.2.1 doesn't say that she has to be an active jammer either in order to score in the standard way when she passes an opponent. That requirement is in 2.3.3.

2.3.3 states that an inactive jammer cannot score points. It doesn't limit its language to points-for-passes. I personally wouldn't award points to an inactive jammer under any circumstances, although I agree that it's a slightly gray area and would follow any HR guidance I was given. But in the moment, I would not award points for passes, points for opponents not on the track, or Screwy Scoring Rule points, or any other kind of points, to an inactive jammer. When she becomes active again, I believe she will then accrue any NOTT points she missed this way. I am less certain about Screwy Scoring Rule points, but I think I would award those too when she returns to active status.

I'm a bit confused by your reply to my post further above; I don't actually think that whether a star pass occurred changes anything. I think the only relevant fact is whether the current jammer has the helmet cover on with stars visible.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 01:01:18 am by General Hellativity »

Offline FNZebra

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2016, 02:02:27 am »
Let's keep in mind that this rule is fairly recent.
[rule]inactive Jammer is any Jammer who is not wearing the Jammer helmet cover with the stars visible, for any reason. An inactive Jammer has the advantage of all Jammer abilities except scoring points (Section 7 - Scoring) and earning Lead Jammer status (Section 2.4 - Lead Jammer). Inactive Jammers are not considered Blockers.[/rule]

It also is very black & white, and therefore needn't be repeated in other parts of the Scoring section. There is no wiggle room there. Cover on, can score; cover off, no more points.
An inactive Jammer cannot accrue additional points, until they become the active Jammer. In the OP, the Jammer chose to remove the cover for strategy, and traded off the chance to earn points while the cover was off. Taco was correct, right out of the gate.

Had the Jammer in the OP put the cover back on correctly before the end of the jam, then yes to the NOTT point.

Sharm, why the insistence on rejecting 2.3.3 here?
You will bout as you practice.


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Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2016, 03:59:57 pm »
I think its interesting how when the cover is off "pending points are accruing" for NOTT waiting to be earned when the cover is put back on, but if we pass someone while the cover is off, it is not accruing waiting for the cover to come back. I believe this difference is what causes people to side on this differently. So when people read "except scoring points" apparently that does not prevent the pending accrual, and even if wrong, will seem incorrect to those with the dissenting opinion. You make it sound really clear, but when I read "scoring points" I don't know if that applies to the possible "NOT SCORING YET" accrual of pending points or not. Those with the dissenting opinion will likely think "Ok so why can we accrue pending points if the cover is off and jammers lose all scoring abilities"

If i'm reading the answers correctly, I think this is the WHY they feel that way.

Quote
Had the Jammer in the OP put the cover back on correctly before the end of the jam, then yes to the NOTT point.

For me this ignores [rule]An inactive Jammer has the advantage of all Jammer abilities except scoring points[/rule]

You are are saying the point was accrued pending the cover. The dissenting opinion would say "well how do you acrrue this pending point if you lose all scoring ability". We know it's pending because if I asked you when does a person who has already scored on a blocker score a point for an opponent who is then penalized. If you answer "the moment they are penalized", then you are saying THAT is the moment you NEED scoring abilities (the cover being on).

Even if there is a consensus, I don't think its as clear as you say. If you happen to think this pending NOTT accrual is part of scoring, then it's easier to see that view.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 04:17:55 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2016, 05:45:07 pm »
So basically there are two real camps here during an incomplete scoring pass:

Camp A: Believes NOTT points trigger indefinitely if the cover is on between the time the first point is scored until the pass is complete

Camp B Believes NOTT points trigger after the first blocker and only again when the pass is complete


Even though I think Camp A is how most people do it. I've played devil's advocate against it because I don't think the rules say which one is right.

[rule]The Jammer earns a Not-On-the-Track (NOTT) point for each opponent who is not on the track immediately upon scoring the first point on any opposing Blocker in each scoring pass, including those opposing Blockers who are still physically on the track but have been directed to the Penalty Box.[/rule]

This rule doesn't actually tell you which one of these is true even if A makes more sense. The rule though only mentions one NOTT triggering momment which is RIGHT AFTER the first person is scored on.

So if you say its triggered any more than this, you might be right and have a consensus, but it only describes one triggering momment.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 05:47:35 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2016, 06:19:02 pm »
(Slight aside from the main conversation)

I think that the implication is clear that other jammer-already-scored-on-first-blocker NOTT points are scored at the moment the opponent exits the track, not retroactively in the past.

I don't believe that to be correct. If the jammer has already passed an opponent and is active on a scoring pass, any other opponents who are penalized are instantly NOTT points. If that were not the case, then there would be scenarios where you could avoid being scored on by deliberately earning a penalty. Many of the confusing scoring rules comes from trying to eliminate that possibility.

We could argue about whether that's clear in the rules, but I believe that's clearly how derby is played and officiated.

Offline General Hellativity

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2016, 11:54:34 pm »
(Slight aside from the main conversation)

I think that the implication is clear that other jammer-already-scored-on-first-blocker NOTT points are scored at the moment the opponent exits the track, not retroactively in the past.

I don't believe that to be correct. If the jammer has already passed an opponent and is active on a scoring pass, any other opponents who are penalized are instantly NOTT points.

I completely agree. And that's what I'm trying to say: penalized opponents are scored on as soon as they are penalized, not in the past when the jammer scored her first point.

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2016, 12:53:45 am »
Right, now I see what you meant. Sorry for the aside, then. :)

Offline Bluebeard

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2016, 12:39:56 am »
I think its interesting how when the cover is off "pending points are accruing" for NOTT waiting to be earned when the cover is put back on, but if we pass someone while the cover is off, it is not accruing waiting for the cover to come back. I believe this difference is what causes people to side on this differently. So when people read "except scoring points" apparently that does not prevent the pending accrual, and even if wrong, will seem incorrect to those with the dissenting opinion. You make it sound really clear, but when I read "scoring points" I don't know if that applies to the possible "NOT SCORING YET" accrual of pending points or not. Those with the dissenting opinion will likely think "Ok so why can we accrue pending points if the cover is off and jammers lose all scoring abilities"
 
If i'm reading the answers correctly, I think this is the WHY they feel that way.

Quote
Had the Jammer in the OP put the cover back on correctly before the end of the jam, then yes to the NOTT point.

For me this ignores [rule]An inactive Jammer has the advantage of all Jammer abilities except scoring points[/rule]

You are are saying the point was accrued pending the cover. The dissenting opinion would say "well how do you acrrue this pending point if you lose all scoring ability". We know it's pending because if I asked you when does a person who has already scored on a blocker score a point for an opponent who is then penalized. If you answer "the moment they are penalized", then you are saying THAT is the moment you NEED scoring abilities (the cover being on).

Even if there is a consensus, I don't think its as clear as you say. If you happen to think this pending NOTT accrual is part of scoring, then it's easier to see that view.


this really great post forced me to refine my position on this topic.  I'm now thinking that it is not so much that NOTT points accrue pending putting on the cover, but more that when she puts on the cover any unscored opponents that are currently eligible as NOTT points are scored as NOTT points.
for example at the time an inactive jammer dons the star cover:
  • Opposing blocker sent to penalty box after cover removal, still in the penalty box:  NOTT point[rule]7.2.1.1.1 - Opponents in the Penalty Box.

    7.2.1.1.2 - Opponents who have been assessed a penalty sent to the Penalty Box (even if they are still on the track).[/rule]
  • Opposing blocker sent to penalty box after cover removal, released from PB, still behind jammer:  NOTT point[rule]7.2.1.1.5 - Opponents who have returned from the Penalty Box behind the Jammer.[/rule]
  • Opposing blocker sent to penalty box after cover removal, released from penalty box, in front of the jammer: not a NOTT point, she can defend her point.[rule]7.2.1.2 - Standard scoring rules and requirements apply to opponents returning from the Penalty Box who skate ahead of the Jammer before the Jammer is able to earn their first point in that scoring pass.[/rule]

Offline Mav'Ricky

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2016, 09:45:54 am »
I think Invader Jim and Derby Medic hit the nail on the head there. Quite succinct.

For the original scenario I'm presuming the opposing blocker that went to the box was not the same blocker upon whom the jammer originally scored.

I would score one point. Reason: Pivot picks up where the jammer left off - 1 point. Pivot cannot accrue points with the helmet cover off, even if those points are unlocked/available to be earnt. Having the helmet cover off disqualified the pivot form earning points. Then the jam ended.
Be fair. Be clear.

Offline The Sharmanator

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Re: One Point or Two Points
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2016, 07:08:02 pm »
(Slight aside from the main conversation)

I think that the implication is clear that other jammer-already-scored-on-first-blocker NOTT points are scored at the moment the opponent exits the track, not retroactively in the past.

I don't believe that to be correct. If the jammer has already passed an opponent and is active on a scoring pass, any other opponents who are penalized are instantly NOTT points.

I completely agree. And that's what I'm trying to say: penalized opponents are scored on as soon as they are penalized, not in the past when the jammer scored her first point.

But if that jammier didn't score that first point in the past then the penalized skater could not be scored on, other then the rare situation 7.2.1.3  describes.


 

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