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Author Topic: SK giving a penalty?!?  (Read 6158 times)

Offline Just Eric

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SK giving a penalty?!?
« on: June 14, 2016, 01:04:05 am »
This is a scenario that happened to me during my first time SK last night with the SBO...


Me(SK):  that was a skating out of bounds (blatantly) 
SBO: remember it and let the refs know at the end of the jam.
Me: no, it doesn't work that way.  The only time that could be plausible is if there is an official review about that situation in which I could give my 2 sense as another source of information.  It's entirely up to the HR.
SBO: that's not what the rules say. 
Me: Black 4.

(End of debate)

After this, I felt very uncomfortable with the SBO skill set.   Especially then hearing she used to be an HNSO for a former league in a different state.   

What are your opinions with this?
8.4.4 - Each referee will provide a working regulated sports whistle that will aid in the appropriate whistles for jam play and calling penalties.  Fox 40 Classic strongly encouraged.  |  Photo Credit: Phantom Photographics

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2016, 04:12:27 am »
I can't find the language right now, but NSOs are only allowed to call penalties that directly relate to their position.  In practice, that means the PBM and the JT are the only NSOs empowered to call penalties other than insubordination.
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Offline Divide by Zero

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2016, 07:14:58 am »
I can't find the language right now, but NSOs are only allowed to call penalties that directly relate to their position.  In practice, that means the PBM and the JT are the only NSOs empowered to call penalties other than insubordination.

Yes, but they are not prohibited from providing information to another official who then makes the call. The NSO can tell a referee what they saw and the referee can choose to call the penalty based on that. That's not the NSO calling a penalty, that's the referee calling a penalty. This is how we used to handle penalties in the box before NSOs were empowered, the NSO would inform the ref what happened and the ref would make the call.

So it's absolutely allowed in the rules. Whether you want to do it or not is a different question and for me depends a lot on context and the details of the situation.

Offline Stray Taco

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2016, 10:36:56 am »
This is a scenario that happened to me during my first time SK last night with the SBO...


Me(SK):  that was a skating out of bounds (blatantly) 
SBO: remember it and let the refs know at the end of the jam.
Me: no, it doesn't work that way.  The only time that could be plausible is if there is an official review about that situation in which I could give my 2 sense as another source of information.  It's entirely up to the HR.
SBO: that's not what the rules say. 
Me: Black 4.

(End of debate)

After this, I felt very uncomfortable with the SBO skill set.   Especially then hearing she used to be an HNSO for a former league in a different state.   

What are your opinions with this?

It could work that way. I've had several times where a call was made after a jam because new information came in or there were enough additional perspectives to give certainty to a penalty I was unsure about. It would've been acceptable to wave the JR over and just say, "I saw Black 4 skate out of bounds on turn X. Should there be a SOOB penalty?" Then the JR can decide what to do with it. If it was the Jammer, maybe they thought they saw it but weren't sure and your certainty on the actual being OOB part (especially on the outside) could be enough for a penalty to be awarded. Or it could be relayed to the OPRs.

Either way, the worst case that could happen is no call is made because no ref was in position to see it, or they saw other factors making it a no call, but it's possible it could lead to helping your fellow officials out.

Edit: Adjusted wording on further reflection.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:35:49 am by Stray Taco »
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Offline Mav'Ricky

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2016, 11:31:12 am »
I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'd forgive the SBO for their apparent lack of knowledge in that area and make a mental note to clarify it for them if they ever asked.

Everyone is at different levels of their development and although it may feel good to school the other officials on your proficiency on the rules in that area, we also need to trust our other officials, even if you doubt their ability.

I think you learn a lot of patience as a Score Keeper - I'd use the opportunity to ask that SBO how you can be the best SK ever. You might even ask them about their experiences as a THNSO and what it was like.

Though I probably couldn't resist politely approaching the refs later on with "Hey, I thought I that skater skated waaaay out of bounds. What was the situation there?"

The rules book lists a whole bunch of reasons why a penalty might not be applied for skating out of bounds.
given your position and distance from the action you might have missed something.

This is not meant as a criticism against you, however those rules are listed below.

[Rule]
5.12.1 Maintaining or increasing speed while out of bounds in the out outfield to travel to or from the Penalty Box.
5.12.2 Exiting the track of one’s own accord in order to avoid an obstacle (e.g., spills, debris, or downed Skaters).
5.12.3 Exiting the track as a result of receiving a block.
5.12.4 Exiting the track as a result of executing a block, or missing a block.
5.12.5 Exiting the track of one’s own accord as a result of injury.
5.12.6 Exiting the track of one’s own accord to address an equipment malfunction.
5.12.7 Exiting the track of one’s own accord to retrieve a helmet cover that is out of bounds (if allowed to do so; see Section 2.6 - Helmet Covers).
5.12.8 Cutting across the in infield in order to legally re-enter the track behind an opponent (for example, one Jammer attempting to return to the track after the other Jammer has skated clockwise).
no impact / no Penalty
5.12.9 Intentionally adopting a straddling state, for any reason, so long as the Skater does not fully exit the track.
5.12.10 Exiting the track due to the belief that one had reason to be out of bounds legally.
5.12.10.1 Mistakenly exiting the track due to mishearing an Official’s instruction (e.g., a Skater thinking that they have been called on a penalty when in fact they were not).
5.12.10.2 Exiting the track after a maneuver that the Skater believes brought them out of bounds (e.g., an apex jump).
5.12.11 After a warning (see Section 5.10 - Out of Play), exiting the track whilst out of play as a result of an immediate attempt to return to the Engagement Zone, so long as this does not substantially cut the lap distance short.
5.12.12 Exiting the track at any point during the four jam-ending whistles.
5.12.13 Exiting the track due to a loss of balance (even if the Skater remains upright).This
Skater is still potentially subject to penalties under Section 5.11 - Cutting the Track.
5.12.14 Exiting the track due to a failed apex jump.This Skater is still potentially subject to
penalties under Section 5.11 - Cutting the Track.
5.12.15 Being propelled fully out of bounds by a teammate.The out-of-bounds Skater is still
potentially subject to pack destruction penalties (see Section 5.10 - Out of Play).
[/rule]

In my mind the working relationship between officials is more important than if we got a particular penalty right in a certain situation. So we should trust that if a referee is in position to see something and doesn't call it then that's the call: a no call.

Even if we doubt that referee's reasoning.

People do miss stuff, so a little understanding goes a long way. Plus there's a chance you might be working with those officials in the future.

EDIT: Grammatical
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:53:03 am by Mavericky »
Be fair. Be clear.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2016, 02:00:00 pm »
I can't find the language right now, but NSOs are only allowed to call penalties that directly relate to their position.  In practice, that means the PBM and the JT are the only NSOs empowered to call penalties other than insubordination.

Yes, but they are not prohibited from providing information to another official who then makes the call. The NSO can tell a referee what they saw and the referee can choose to call the penalty based on that. That's not the NSO calling a penalty, that's the referee calling a penalty. This is how we used to handle penalties in the box before NSOs were empowered, the NSO would inform the ref what happened and the ref would make the call.

So it's absolutely allowed in the rules. Whether you want to do it or not is a different question and for me depends a lot on context and the details of the situation.

I don't think this is a good way of thinking about it.  The only penalties NSOs were allowed to request, pre-empowerment, were those directly related to their function.  That is still the case, it's just specifically spelled out. 

I see what I think are uncalled penalties all the time when I'm working in the middle as an NSO.  I wouldn't *dream* of going up to a ref and saying - "Hey! I saw a track cut."  That's just not appropriate.

I did finally find the exact verbage:

[rule]8.3.7 - The Head Referee may designate NSOs to signal and enforce penalties in situations in which said NSOs are able to observe the penalty. This includes, but is not limited to, obscene, profane, or abusive language directed at said NSOs or another Official (see Section 5.16.10); removal of safety equipment while in the Penalty Box (see Section 5.13.11); Penalty Box violations (see Section 5.13.9, Section 5.13.10, Section 5.13.11, and Section 5.13.20); and Delay of Game penalties (see Section 5.15 - Delay of Game).

8.3.7.1 - The Head Referee may designate which NSOs are empowered to call penalties, as well as which penalties said NSOs are empowered to call, and the manner in which said penalties are enforced.

8.3.7.1.1 - NSOs may only be designated to call penalties pursuant to their officiating role, to their person, or to those around them. For example, no NSO may be designated to call penalties that involve blocks or assists.
[/rule]

I think 8.3.7.1.1 also clearly includes skating out of bounds as something that's not within the NSOs' purview.

(Edited for clarity)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 03:43:13 pm by AdamSmasher »
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Offline ShoNuff

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2016, 03:29:11 am »
I have to disagree with Smasher.

The only penalties it is common for an NSO to have a good position to call are those related to their position area.  Much like referees will call the penalties visible from their position area and only seldom be in a good position to call a penalty not normally visible from their position.

There is no reason an NSO cannot provide a piece of information that can combine with information other officials saw and result in a penalty.

Since NSO's are often back from the track, the pack, and any potential penalizable actions, they are often in a far weaker position to call penalties away from their position area than a referee.  So it's uncommon for them to be in a position to have information not already available to the referees who are positioned to see the penalty.

The SBO in the OP was correct. 
Officials are allowed to communicate with each other outside of an official review. You should never feel like you are prohibited from talking to another official about information relevant to the game. 

If you were in a poor position to see something, don't be surprised if the other officials disagree with you and you should think about whether you could clearly see all stages of the action if you are going to bring it up now rather than as a concern at half-time or post-game.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2016, 07:31:16 pm »
I agree with Sho. For me  "call penalties" is enforcement only. For me they just cannot issue the penalty. If I was a ref and I was missing a small piece of the officiating equation and asked an NSO or Alt what they saw, if I felt it satisfied the doubt I had on making the call, I would make the call.

I have seen NSOs and Alternates used to assist decision making.

[rule]8.3.4 - If an Official is not sure whether an action warrants a penalty, a penalty will not be assessed.[/rule]

The thing is, when people combine info with other people, it is possible for the doubt that is preventing you from making the call can be removed, thus making the SO able to make the call. On their own they cannot because of the doubt, after they hear supporting information from other SOs, NSOs, THNSO, THR, or the Alternates, If they believe that doubt is removed from the official questioning the call, then it can be made. If the SO still feels doubt after collecting the information, I think they should not make the call.

For me the rules don't say who can contribute to removing the doubt the officials have on a call. It just says if you have it, you can't make it.

A good example of this thread that I have done twice:

Toward the end of a jam I see a skater who I am 95% sure just came from the box re-enter illegally in front of 2 teammates. The small amount of doubt I have thinks it could have been just a normal re-entry from someone who was recycling out of bounds. 5 seconds later the jam ends. I skate to the Penalty Box "did you release Black 123 5 seconds ago?"  PB: "yes"   I then skate to the bench and issue the penalty because that information removed all the doubt I had to make the call.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 07:43:33 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2016, 04:38:04 pm »
I'd like to clarify a bit here.

I absolutely think it's appropriate for NSOs to PROVIDE information when requested. It happens all the time, and good examples have been given above. Sho's post seems to be along those lines, and I agree with it.

However, I don't think it's appropriate for NSOs to *request* penalties outside of their area.  The initial post gave the example of someone seeing a "skating out of bounds" penalty from the score table.  If I, as a scorekeeper, saw what I thought was a clear SOOB from the table, I would nonetheless keep my trap shut, per 8.3.7.1.1.  It's not my role to call that, and a ref shouldn't call it based just on my say so.

A clearer example - if, as PBM, I saw a skater leave the box and skate right into the middle of the pack, I wouldn't say anything.  However, if I was asked by a ref "Did you see that skater enter the pack?", I'd certainly say yes.  And if an official review were called, I'd probably tell my HNSO that I witnessed what I thought was an illegal action, and let them decide whether to bring it into the huddle. (Since I wouldn't know that that was, in fact, what the OR was about.)

But I think there's a fundamental distinction between providing supporting information to a call made by a ref, and making or requesting the call yourself.
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Offline SPECIAL EDwin

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2016, 11:04:00 am »
Throughout my illustrious three and a half year career reffing I have always been told that I must see the initiation, impact and aftermath of an action in order to make a call.  It never occurred to me that I might combine observations with another official, e.g. if I see the initiation and the aftermath and another ref sees the impact we may combine forces and issue a penalty.  By the same token, I could issue a penalty based entirely on the observations of an NSO.  I have been approached by NSOs before, as HR, and been informed which skater did what illegal action, but I always said, "Okay I will inform the crew to watch out for that" Perhaps I should have made a call based on the "heresay" information.  Of course we have to make allowances for how experienced the NSO is (for instance if the NSO is also a referee). IF I am getting the gist of this discussion correctly I may have to revamp my refereeing to further utilize the help of the other officials.  OF course refereeing "by committee" would be a rather slow process and the game would slow down by the official timeouts, but still I can see there would be some times when the delay would be justified. Thank you all.

Offline llama of death

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Re: SK giving a penalty?!?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2016, 11:25:54 pm »
Here is how my crew uses this most of the time:

A ref or NSO [official 1] sees part or all of an action but did not feel they had position or otherwise made no call at the time. Between jams they bring the refs over to turn 3 quickly. Official 1 states what they saw clearly and precisely: "At the beginning of the jam I saw [color, #] initiate what I believe was a back block to [opponent, color, #], but could not call it because I could not see the point of initiation, did anyone else have eyes on it?

If anyone saw the point of contact they speak up. If not we all say no "no eyes" and we get back to position before the jam starts. [applies to NSO's if they are clear and precise about what they saw]

This happens mid jam too like this: Front OPR sees a skater step out [pending micro cut] during contact with an opponent. Mid OPR can see the hips but is currently looking for elbows or other penalties and cannot see their feet. Front OPR seeing the step out immediately says so to Mid OPR: "White blocker, stepped out" Mid OPR either nods for clean, shakes "no" for no eyes, or calls the penalty if they saw the impact which only they where in position to see.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

 

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