intruder

Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Jammer Passing Inactive Jammers by hellvis
November 14, 2019, 03:37:30 am

Re: JAMMER HELMET COVER by Stray Taco
October 03, 2019, 12:54:03 pm

Clover Cup 2020 - March 20-22 - North Richland Hills, TX USA by SodOff
September 28, 2019, 10:09:13 am

JAMMER HELMET COVER by 3Beers
September 22, 2019, 12:35:26 pm

Re: "Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Bluebeard
July 11, 2019, 06:30:49 pm

"Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Rego_Derby
July 11, 2019, 01:08:36 am

Re: Jammer Scoring Theory by Major Wood
June 26, 2019, 09:59:33 pm

Jammer Scoring Theory by Rego_Derby
June 25, 2019, 04:30:03 am

Re: Clamping down with the upper arm by bmd (2113)
June 12, 2019, 07:54:29 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Major Wood
June 12, 2019, 04:16:34 pm

Author Topic: Early hit?  (Read 5291 times)

Offline Stray Taco

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 385
  • Stats Sheet: 4
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Derby / Athens Ohio Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Early hit?
« on: July 06, 2016, 12:47:55 pm »
I had this scenario come up this weekend, and I made no call, but am now second guessing myself.

Scenario: Before the jam starting whistle, black blocker and white blocker are moving towards a position. Black blocker rolls around white blocker and pushes her way into the position, blocking the white blocker out. It wasn't a hard hit, but it was a block, as she used her hips to force the opponent aside.

The other refs on the crew agreed with my no call because nobody was in an established position and that was my thought process too until I went back and noticed this:
[rule]Penalty
5.16.18 - A Skater initiating contact or engaging an opponent before the jam-starting whistle that allows the initiator to gain a superior starting position. This includes gaining a legal starting position (gaining an in-bounds or legal starting position via the contact), or breaking a wall of opponents.
[/rule]

This penalty doesn't mention "established position" and the penalty threshold rests on the meaning of "superior starting position". It gives examples but doesn't say those are the only ones. The position was right against the Pivot line and the white blocker was forced to a position behind the black blocker, and the black blocker was definitely in a superior position within the track - although the white blocker wasn't in an illegal starting position.

I'm still leaning towards no call but I'm not 100% on it and wanted to see if there were other thoughts.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline Bluebeard

  • Referee
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Independent
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2016, 09:37:00 pm »
Was black blocker ever in an illegal starting position through this (on/beyond the pivot line, out of bounds), or were they both moving forwards within their legal starting area?

If black blocker stepped on/over the pivot line and moved white blocker to get back into a legal starting position, then it is definitely a penalty.  Since you did not mention that in OP I assume that was not the case.   

If they were both within their legal starting area throughout the maneuver, it sounds like a "I'd have to see it" situation.  With that said, it sounds like [rule]8.3.4 If an Official is not sure whether an action warrants a penalty, a penalty will not be
assessed.[/rule] is likely to come into play.

Edit: refined language in last sentence.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 09:45:41 pm by Bluebeard »

Offline Stray Taco

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 385
  • Stats Sheet: 4
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Derby / Athens Ohio Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2016, 04:27:54 pm »
Was black blocker ever in an illegal starting position through this (on/beyond the pivot line, out of bounds), or were they both moving forwards within their legal starting area?

If black blocker stepped on/over the pivot line and moved white blocker to get back into a legal starting position, then it is definitely a penalty.  Since you did not mention that in OP I assume that was not the case.   

If they were both within their legal starting area throughout the maneuver, it sounds like a "I'd have to see it" situation.  With that said, it sounds like [rule]8.3.4 If an Official is not sure whether an action warrants a penalty, a penalty will not be
assessed.[/rule] is likely to come into play.

Edit: refined language in last sentence.

You're correct that it was not the case. Both Skaters were fully inbounds between the Jammer and Pivot lines. And yes, 8.3.4. was exactly the reason I made no call at that point, and if I see it happen again with no new information, that's still what I'd do.

I'm hoping to be able to grab a video clip at some point, but as of now there's none available. If you've ever seen the move where a skater pushes a leg around and then forces someone out of position with their hips, that's basically it - except it was between jams and both skaters were in motion at the time.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline Mav'Ricky

  • Referee
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 126
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Victorian Roller Derby League (Melbourne, Australia)
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2016, 09:02:33 pm »
If both skaters were fully in bounds between jammer & pivot lines then both have established starting positions, (rule 3.2 -  referred to in  WFTDA Q&A "Blocking Before The Whistle")
[rule]3.2.1.1 - Blockers are in position if they are between the Jammer Line and the Pivot Line (measured counter-clockwise) at the start of the jam...[/rule]

In blocking white blocker out, black blocker caused them to lose position so should get an early hit penalty under rule 5.16.17
[rule]5.16.17 - A Skater initiating contact or engaging an opponent before the jam-starting whistle that forces the receiving opponent out of their established starting position. This includes forcing an opponent down, out of bounds, severely off balance, or into an illegal starting position.[/rule]
Be fair. Be clear.

Offline Stray Taco

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 385
  • Stats Sheet: 4
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Derby / Athens Ohio Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2016, 09:14:43 pm »
If both skaters were fully in bounds between jammer & pivot lines then both have established starting positions, (rule 3.2 -  referred to in  WFTDA Q&A "Blocking Before The Whistle")
[rule]3.2.1.1 - Blockers are in position if they are between the Jammer Line and the Pivot Line (measured counter-clockwise) at the start of the jam...[/rule]

In blocking white blocker out, black blocker caused them to lose position so should get an early hit penalty under rule 5.16.17
[rule]5.16.17 - A Skater initiating contact or engaging an opponent before the jam-starting whistle that forces the receiving opponent out of their established starting position. This includes forcing an opponent down, out of bounds, severely off balance, or into an illegal starting position.[/rule]

Playing devil's advocate here...  if both skaters are both still upright, inbounds and in the legal starting position, which part of established starting position did they lose, especially since both were in motion?
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline The Sharmanator

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 336
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Girls / Cincinnati Battering Rams
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2016, 10:46:05 pm »
If both skaters were fully in bounds between jammer & pivot lines then both have established starting positions, (rule 3.2 -  referred to in  WFTDA Q&A "Blocking Before The Whistle")
[rule]3.2.1.1 - Blockers are in position if they are between the Jammer Line and the Pivot Line (measured counter-clockwise) at the start of the jam...[/rule]

In blocking white blocker out, black blocker caused them to lose position so should get an early hit penalty under rule 5.16.17
[rule]5.16.17 - A Skater initiating contact or engaging an opponent before the jam-starting whistle that forces the receiving opponent out of their established starting position. This includes forcing an opponent down, out of bounds, severely off balance, or into an illegal starting position.[/rule]

Playing devil's advocate here...  if both skaters are both still upright, inbounds and in the legal starting position, which part of established starting position did they lose, especially since both were in motion?

Taco, I think you were heading down the right path with:

[rule]5.16.18 - A Skater initiating contact or engaging an opponent before the jam-starting whistle that allows the initiator to gain a superior starting position. This includes gaining a legal starting position (gaining an in-bounds or legal starting position via the contact), or breaking a wall of opponents.[/rule]

I know 5.16.18 dances around Established Position and it seems like you may be going back to established position mind set when the rule clearly states "to gain superior starting position" not established position.  I think you were of the right mind set when you decided a penalty was warranted.  5.16.18 penalties can be very subtle. 

If both skaters appear to be rolling towards the same spot on the floor it can be impossible to determine who "if either" has gained superior position.  If you can clearly determine who the initiator was and they did in fact gain superior position "kind of like butting into line at my favorite buffet" because of the early hit/contact then a penalty is warranted. 


Offline Mav'Ricky

  • Referee
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 126
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Victorian Roller Derby League (Melbourne, Australia)
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2016, 04:20:36 am »
If both skaters were fully in bounds between jammer & pivot lines then both have established starting positions, (rule 3.2 -  referred to in  WFTDA Q&A "Blocking Before The Whistle")
[rule]3.2.1.1 - Blockers are in position if they are between the Jammer Line and the Pivot Line (measured counter-clockwise) at the start of the jam...[/rule]

In blocking white blocker out, black blocker caused them to lose position so should get an early hit penalty under rule 5.16.17
[rule]5.16.17 - A Skater initiating contact or engaging an opponent before the jam-starting whistle that forces the receiving opponent out of their established starting position. This includes forcing an opponent down, out of bounds, severely off balance, or into an illegal starting position.[/rule]

Playing devil's advocate here...  if both skaters are both still upright, inbounds and in the legal starting position, which part of established starting position did they lose, especially since both were in motion?

I would say black blocker lost the legal part of their established starting position as they were illegally blocked into an illegal starting position by white blocker before the whistle. Legal, meaning in bounds between the jammer and pivot lines. If the jam had started whilst they were touching out of bounds then they would have been in an illegal starting position. As this was due to blocking before the whistle, then I think the penalty is warranted.

I will say I'm not 100% sure I would have picked this up during a scrim though! It's a very subtle one and I must admit to having studied the relevant rule/clarification prior to answering the initial post. ;-)
Be fair. Be clear.

Offline Stray Taco

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 385
  • Stats Sheet: 4
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Derby / Athens Ohio Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2016, 05:40:13 am »
If both skaters were fully in bounds between jammer & pivot lines then both have established starting positions, (rule 3.2 -  referred to in  WFTDA Q&A "Blocking Before The Whistle")
[rule]3.2.1.1 - Blockers are in position if they are between the Jammer Line and the Pivot Line (measured counter-clockwise) at the start of the jam...[/rule]

In blocking white blocker out, black blocker caused them to lose position so should get an early hit penalty under rule 5.16.17
[rule]5.16.17 - A Skater initiating contact or engaging an opponent before the jam-starting whistle that forces the receiving opponent out of their established starting position. This includes forcing an opponent down, out of bounds, severely off balance, or into an illegal starting position.[/rule]

Playing devil's advocate here...  if both skaters are both still upright, inbounds and in the legal starting position, which part of established starting position did they lose, especially since both were in motion?

I would say black blocker lost the legal part of their established starting position as they were illegally blocked into an illegal starting position by white blocker before the whistle. Legal, meaning in bounds between the jammer and pivot lines. If the jam had started whilst they were touching out of bounds then they would have been in an illegal starting position. As this was due to blocking before the whistle, then I think the penalty is warranted.

I will say I'm not 100% sure I would have picked this up during a scrim though! It's a very subtle one and I must admit to having studied the relevant rule/clarification prior to answering the initial post. ;-)

If the black blocker had gone out of bounds, there would be no doubt about a penalty, but neither blocker was out of bounds or illegally positioned before, during, or after the contact. That's the point of my original question: was a "superior starting position" gained even though no wall was broken and nobody was moved into or out of an illegal position.

I can still see both sides of this. Sharmanator's "buffet line" analogy makes sense, but I still don't know if that qualifies as a superior position in the rules.

So... I'll keep listening  ;)
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline Mav'Ricky

  • Referee
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 126
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Victorian Roller Derby League (Melbourne, Australia)
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2016, 07:01:32 am »
...Black blocker rolls around white blocker and pushes her way into the position, blocking the white blocker out.
Riiight so now we've clarified that by being blocked out the blocker was not actually blocked OUT, just blocked out ;-)

I see no penalty here. But great question by the way.
Be fair. Be clear.

Offline Stray Taco

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 385
  • Stats Sheet: 4
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Derby / Athens Ohio Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2016, 01:57:37 pm »
...Black blocker rolls around white blocker and pushes her way into the position, blocking the white blocker out.
Riiight so now we've clarified that by being blocked out the blocker was not actually blocked OUT, just blocked out ;-)

I see no penalty here. But great question by the way.
Ah..yes I see what I did there. Yeah...I meant blocked out like out of the spot they were going for, not out of bounds.
Mike "Stray Taco" Straw

I know some things, but there's a lot more I don't know.

Offline The Sharmanator

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 336
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • League Affiliation: Ohio Roller Girls / Cincinnati Battering Rams
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2016, 09:24:06 pm »
...Black blocker rolls around white blocker and pushes her way into the position, blocking the white blocker out.
Riiight so now we've clarified that by being blocked out the blocker was not actually blocked OUT, just blocked out ;-)

I see no penalty here. But great question by the way.
Ah..yes I see what I did there. Yeah...I meant blocked out like out of the spot they were going for, not out of bounds.

So she was denied a superior position due to one jammer initiating an early hit/block/bump/push/slight push prior to the jam starting whistle, or maybe a better way of saying it is the initiating jammer due  an early hit/block/bump/push/slight push prior to the jam starting whistle was able to secure a superior position?  If so why would anyone say that is not a penalty based on the rule 5.16.18?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 10:25:10 pm by The Sharmanator »

Offline SPECIAL EDwin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: Early hit?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2016, 03:26:06 am »
I would hinge the question on whether the  initiating blocker's hips were in front of or behind the hips of the recipient when contact was made to determine gain of superior position. The skater's positions during the block are not clear in the OP. I basically agree that it could be worthy of an Early Hit penalty. :)

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3938
Views: 6461
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2559
Views: 5302
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 2755
Views: 5913
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3551
Views: 5908
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal