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Author Topic: Track marks and our use of 10ft  (Read 19792 times)

Offline Stony Hawk

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2016, 05:39:26 pm »
Quote
as in a straight line run from the tangent of the inside boundary where the Skaters are.

This is the method I have always seen taught for proximity measurement in the apex for pack definition or EZ definition.

Agreed.   

That's too bad as the 'arc length' aspect of the geometry involved was the first time where I was able to use the published 7' 1/2" array measurement and get the measurements of the last poly segment to 'work out' in a symmetrical way.

I'll try again using 10' tangent lines to find the radius dimension that works.   I expect that its still not somewhere 'in the center'.


Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2016, 07:30:49 pm »
I deleted that post because I missed the rule that taco quoted, but yeah I still think that. :)
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Offline llama of death

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2016, 08:11:25 pm »
Quote
as in a straight line run from the tangent of the inside boundary where the Skaters are.

This is the method I have always seen taught for proximity measurement in the apex for pack definition or EZ definition.

Agreed.   

That's too bad as the 'arc length' aspect of the geometry involved was the first time where I was able to use the published 7' 1/2" array measurement and get the measurements of the last poly segment to 'work out' in a symmetrical way.

I'll try again using 10' tangent lines to find the radius dimension that works.   I expect that its still not somewhere 'in the center'.



A track with a 84.5" (or 7ft .5in) spacing [layout marks on the inside line], is parallel the inside line and is equally divided uses a 212.96 inch radius (or a 17ft 9in from center, or 5' 3" from the inside line).

*edit* It would have 6 segments of 10ft throughout the arc.
I have however tired this format on a track it does not look good to have the marks so close to the inside line. Better to add one more segment and increase the distance from the center to approximate the center of the track.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 08:20:47 pm by llama of death »
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2016, 03:09:54 pm »
I like full length lines partial lines, I don't find particularly helpful.

I'm not sure if this thread is going anywhere at this point. If you are finding the current workshopping of the track layout useful, I'm not stopping the conversation. I'm just pointing out that it seems like a lot of noise to me at this moment.
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Offline Stony Hawk

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2016, 03:33:06 pm »
Sorry Wood.  didn't intend to create noise.

I have nothing more to add
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 03:41:56 pm by Stony Hawk »

Offline SPECIAL EDwin

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2016, 10:32:41 am »
There is one thing that nobody seems to have addressed in this thread and that is where skaters actually skate on the apex.  In my experience most of the traffic is not at the centerline of the track.  It's closer to the inside track boundary.  As Major Wood pointed out the only true indication of ten feet would have to be dots, not hashmarks.  ( in a perfect world there would be full track width hashmarks with a contrasting dot at the actual ten foot distance
)  When I lay out the track at practice I put the centers of two foot hashmarks about four feet from the inside track boundary because that gives skaters and refs a general idea of where ten feet is.  Lo and behold, that's where the skaters find themselves most of the time. Whether it's to cut short the lap length or because they know they can bridge farther out, skaters tend to hug the inside line rather than the middle ... and I've yet to see an apex jump on the outside line. So to my reckoning the track  design is brilliant.  It could be because it's what I "grew up with" but to me it's a very workable layout. OF course I tell skaters and newer referees how to USE the marks, that they are mere guidelines, and that we should all get a sense of distances (ten feet or twenty) independent of the lines on the track.  Sorry Llama.  Ain't broke, let's not fix it.  :)

Offline llama of death

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2016, 11:11:12 pm »
When I lay out the track at practice I put the centers of two foot hash-marks about four feet from the inside track boundary because that gives skaters and refs a general idea of where ten feet is.

So... you yourself don't even use the WFTDA std layout then.

You modified it, similar to one of the methods I outlined in fact. By changing the marks from "center of track" to "4ft from the inside line" they are now parallel the inside line and a consistent distance apart. Assuming you stayed with the 7ft 1/2in measurement your marks are just over 9.29 ft apart. Adjusting the distance from the inside line to a distance of 5ft 3.5" would give very accurate 10ft marks all the way around the track btw.

**I do also agree that full lines and a dot would be ideal.**

So in what way, Special Edwind, are you saying "if its not broken don't fix it" if you also changed from using the standard layout?




@wood: I for one am enjoying seeing the various methods people have used to modify WFTDA std layout to achieve a usable marking system. Plus the more we discuss it the more likely this is to be perfected, and possibly gain traction in the leagues [seeing as they can vote and we cannot]. Skaters do seem to read this site from time to time. If the lack of progress one way or the other distresses you I would be amenable to locking the thread, but for the reasons above would prefer not to.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 11:12:54 pm by llama of death »
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline SPECIAL EDwin

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2016, 08:45:33 pm »
Ah yes, Llama, I was trying to fudge the recommended layout a bit, wasn't I?  What I meant by "not fixing it" was that I would rather deal with the existing method of evenly spaced but slightly incorrect hashmarks on the apexes than to make a change that would leave two spaces drastically different than the others.
 The idea of shortening the track to make the ten foot hashmarks center on the track would make the track fit into smaller venues,  but I still favor the original design. I do appreciate this thought-provoking exercise and your mathematical calculations.

Offline llama of death

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2016, 08:45:08 pm »
Just a minor point of confusion, where did anyone say make the track shorter?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 06:59:14 pm by llama of death »
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline SPECIAL EDwin

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 11:33:24 pm »
My idea, Llama. It would solve the problem of putting all ten foot marks on the center line, and I realize that this is a change that will never happen.  Again, I'm happy with the status quo.  As long as we all realize that there is a discrepancy, and understand the nature of that discrepancy we can still make good calls.

Offline llama of death

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2016, 07:02:04 pm »
As long as we all realize that there is a discrepancy, and understand the nature of that discrepancy we can still make good calls.
Yes, though I find more and more that these good calls are being labeled bad calls because the skaters/fans/coaches do not know or understand these discrepancies. Which is most of the reason why I think it should be rethought, not just to make reffing easier (it wont really) but to make our calls more transparent to the viewer.

I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline SPECIAL EDwin

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2016, 04:36:02 pm »
LLama, I don't know how feasible  this would be in other Leagues but we have been giving short classes to the skaters here ( in two local leagues) on this topic, including drawing a "lasagna slice" in chalk on the apex).   With your permission I will be using your calculations to illustrate what happens at the apex. I reckon it would be a good idea to mention something about it in captains meetings as well. Things may change in the future but that's how we are currently dealing with it. ... and I hope the fans will eventually catch on.

Offline llama of death

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Re: Track marks and our use of 10ft
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2016, 07:25:48 pm »
LLama, I don't know how feasible  this would be in other Leagues but we have been giving short classes to the skaters here ( in two local leagues) on this topic, including drawing a "lasagna slice" in chalk on the apex).   With your permission I will be using your calculations to illustrate what happens at the apex. I reckon it would be a good idea to mention something about it in captains meetings as well. Things may change in the future but that's how we are currently dealing with it. ... and I hope the fans will eventually catch on.

Yep, go ahead, just make sure your using the right one [wftda standard layout. etc] to match your track as I have posted quite a few images.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

 

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