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Author Topic: Late hit and counterblocking  (Read 2901 times)

Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Late hit and counterblocking
« on: February 27, 2017, 08:14:05 am »
The following happened at a scrimmage yesterday:

During call-off Red Jammer is approaching the pack with significant speed, Blck Blocker is stationary at the rear of the pack, facing clockwise. After the end of the whistle signal, Red Jammer makes contact to Black Blocker who counterblocks in order to absorb the impact. Red Jammer falls, Black Blocker remains stationary.

Clearly Red Jammer initiated a late hit, but there was no impact. (And it didn't quite reach the level of an expulsion in my opinion. It got close to one, though.)
By counterblocking Black Blocker also initiated and there was impact, so I issued a late hit penalty on Black Blocker at the time. But rethinking the situation, I'm questioning that call: Without the counterblock Black Blocker could have been knocked down backwards with significant force, which is obviously dangerous. And it feels wrong to penalize her for trying to avoid a dangerous fall from an illegal block.

What do others think?

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Late hit and counterblocking
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2017, 09:33:31 am »
This is one of those "make a call, ref!" situations for which an exact answer cannot be given without seeing the action.  That being said, I'm wondering about a few issues.

You twice described Red Jammer's block as dangerous, yet you said it wasn't an expulsion-level action.  If Red Jammer was entering with such force that Black Blocked needed to counterblock (or at least jump out of the way) to avoid significant risk of injury, then Red Jammer should be considered for expulsion.  If Red Jammer's action was clearly not expulsion-level, then the counterblock was gratuitous and should be penalized.

I'm also questioning whether Black Blocker could have moved out of the way.  If there was time to counterblock, there was likely time to move aside as well.  Was the counterblock truly necessary?

This strikes me the sort of action where the crew may need to assemble to discuss their opinions of the action that took place.

Edit: minor grammatical fix
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 02:14:19 pm by Axis of Stevil »
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Late hit and counterblocking
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 01:56:55 pm »
I feel like most people feel like you are able to counter block legally in areas where unexpected contact can occur to protect yourself from injury. I have no casebook or rule to quote, but I think that's just how most feel about it.
Muscogee Roller Girls: Columbus, GA
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Offline Kabong

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Re: Late hit and counterblocking
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 03:56:50 pm »
The only relevant scenario I find in a quick search is for OOP [rule]Scenario C4.27
Red Jammer is 18 ft (5.48m) ahead of the Pack alongside White Pivot. They continue to skate, and an Official gives an Out of Play warning to White Pivot. White Pivot continues to skate alongside Red Jammer, and then blocks Red Jammer, making hip-to-hip contact. Red Jammer counter-blocks White Pivot. White Pivot falls as a result.

Outcome: White Pivot is penalized. Red Jammer is not.

Rationale: White Pivot received an Out of Play warning and failed to immediately attempt to return to the Engagement Zone; rather, they continued to block Red Jammer. Skaters who are illegally blocked while out of play may legally counter-block, so Red Jammer’s actions do not warrant a penalty.

Keep in Mind: If Red Jammer’s action was not a counter-block, but instead a separate and distinct initiation of a block, Red Jammer should be penalized as White Pivot falling is enough impact to warrant a penalty for unexpected contact.[/rule]

Which, if memory serves, was the only unexpected contact in which one could legally counter-block in the 2015 rule set, so I cannot definitively say this is an intended (or unintended) change. However, without evidence to the contrary, and since they do both fall under the unexpected contact category, I'd be inclined to make a no call after having determined that the contact was a counter-block rather that a separate, new initiation.
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Offline Ref Leppard

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Re: Late hit and counterblocking
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2017, 03:29:43 am »
A thought occurred to me while reading this.  Almost by definition a "late hit" cannot have impact as we normally define it.  The jam is done so position doesn't matter anymore.  So it would almost seem to me that, like Stevil said, it's entirely dependent upon what you see.  I would lean towards whether or not it was preventable.  If it was an obvious hit after the 1st set of whistles then I would call it.  If it was due to normal motion at jam end, I probably wouldn't call it. 

Does that make sense?

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Late hit and counterblocking
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2017, 03:46:19 am »
A thought occurred to me while reading this.  Almost by definition a "late hit" cannot have impact as we normally define it.  The jam is done so position doesn't matter anymore. 

This is true.  It's also why in the last rule set the "must skate counter-clockwise to the penalty box" rules did not apply between jams.  There is no normal direction of play between jams, so we let skaters enter it from above.  Similarly, there is no in vs. out of play/bounds between jams, so those aren't mentioned in the early or late hitting rules.

Late hitting is instead a penalty if the skater is forced down or forced significantly off-balance.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

 

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