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Author Topic: Star pass interference -- new rules  (Read 3611 times)

Offline Bluebeard

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Star pass interference -- new rules
« on: March 09, 2017, 12:04:24 am »
I called (and saw) my first "star pass interference" Saturday.  This was a stopped block that was in the no impact / no penalty level of illegal stopped block; a momentary stop while engaging the opposing jammer.  It happened to be while said jammer was reaching over trying to hand the star to her pivot, who was reaching to grab the star.  Thus the "star pass interference" penalty.  Yes, I (as HR) had to spend some time at halftime explaining that call.

Later, I got thinking about it.  The only illegal procedures the casebook talks about are captain/alternate identification and penalty box violations.  Is this something that we need to know the 2015 rules to know about, or did this silently go away like "illegal return"?

Is this call supported in the 2017 rules?

Offline llama of death

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Re: Star pass interference -- new rules
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2017, 12:35:23 am »
I don't think this has gone away just moved to be an implied penalty, here is why:

[rule]4. Penalties

When a Skater commits a rule infraction or a foul, a penalty may be assessed as a punishment, handicap, or loss of advantage. Penalties are applied to both a Skater and the position that Skater is currently playing.

Officials signal and enforce penalties and warnings as they occur during a game. Penalties should not be assessed for actions that have little to no impact on the game or the Skaters.

The following types of penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below and in the Rules of Flat Track Roller Derby Casebook. These sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly.

Illegal actions that do not fall cleanly into one of the categories below should be penalized using these descriptions and examples as guidelines.

4.2.4. Other Illegal Procedures

Skaters who violate the rules of the game should be penalized if the violation has a significant impact on the game. Examples of this are listed in the Rules of Flat Track Roller Derby Casebook; however, Skaters and Officials should work to ensure that the rules are followed as swiftly as possible, and to rectify any illegal or potentially illegal play before it has sufficient impact on the game to warrant penalization. Nevertheless, if a technical violation by one team results in an advantage, this should be penalized.[/rule] *emphasis mine*

The rules define that a star pass is a legal action to transfer the star from a jammer to a pivot of the same team while meeting all status requirements.

An illegal block which prevents legal game-play can be said to have impact, and an illegal block which prevents a star pass has definitely effected the potential outcome of the game thus is arguably be significant impact.

This is all opinion though as all full text searches of the rules and casebook do not mention how to handle this only that illegal actions which are not covered should be called on a case by case basis using the rules and casebook as a guide.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Axis of Stevil

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Re: Star pass interference -- new rules
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2017, 01:54:09 am »
Discretion should be used here.  If the jammer is extending the star to the pivot's hand which is just four inches away then someone forearms the jammer's hand aside, that's impact.  But if the jammer and pivot are five feet away, then the star pass was not prevented by the action.

Generally speaking, I won't issue a penalty for a normally-NI/NP action unless a star pass was both imminent and likely to succeed had the action not occurred.

(This is my own personal metric -- others may dial it up or down a bit.)
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Star pass interference -- new rules
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2017, 02:00:35 pm »
I agree with AoS, it should be imminent and have some legit probability of success.
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Offline llama of death

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Re: Star pass interference -- new rules
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2017, 09:04:06 pm »
Agreed.

Tangent to this:

There is some potentially bad info circling around from some of the non-wftda official's training that it would be good to make a public discussion of:

"any block legal OR illegal which prevents an imminent star-pass may be a star-pass violation if it prevented the pass." -instructor

Personally this is not at all how I would call it. As far as I know a legal block, from a legal blocking zone to a legal target zone, is still legal even if it prevents an imminent pass. Yes?

I bring this up as the trainer is quite adamant and well respected and I would rather keep this impersonal but it needs to be clear to the public that legal is legal for blocking a star-pass.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Bluebeard

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Re: Star pass interference -- new rules
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2017, 10:00:31 pm »
Yeah,  the pivot was right there.  The star pass succeeded on a subsequent lunge.  This action delayed the successful completion of the star pass by probably two or three seconds.

@llama yes, a legal block is a legal block.  the 2015 rules specifically said that a star pass can be blocked by any legal means of blocking.  I would include a citation here, but the link to the 2015 rules set is not working correctly right now.

Offline Ref Leppard

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Re: Star pass interference -- new rules
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2017, 05:43:48 am »
I think this may have been implied already but I would not call this an illegal procedure as mentioned in the first post.  I would think the call would simply be a stopped block since it had impact due to interfering with the star pass. 

And I would have to agree with Llama (until told otherwise) that a hit with a legal blocking zone to a legal target zone that interferes with a star pass is normal game play and I would not call it as a penalty.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Star pass interference -- new rules
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2017, 02:10:01 pm »
It's possible that the confusion arises because the 2015 rule set specifically enumerated a number of actions that were illegal but not directly penalizable.  For example:

[rule]No Impact/No Penalty
5.5.5 Illegal forearm or hand contact to an opponent that forces the receiving opponent
off balance, forward, and/or sideways but does not cause the opponent to lose
relative position or the initiator or a teammate to gain relative position. For example,
a slight but observable push with the hands or forearms[/rule]

This was an illegal action but not a penalty.  However... if this illegal action prevented a star pass from occurring, then it was a penalty, because it was preventing a star pass by illegal means.  I.e., an action that did not constitute a Forearm penalty could still be a Star Pass Interference penalty.

In my opinion, this really hasn't changed.  You have an illegal action (contact with an illegal blocking zone) and a game impact in "prevention of a star pass."  The only potential difference is that under the old rules, we separated different parts of the impact spectrum with different verbal cues, and we don't know how that will shake out with the new cues yet.
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Offline Ref Leppard

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Re: Star pass interference -- new rules
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2017, 04:40:58 pm »
It's possible that the confusion arises because the 2015 rule set specifically enumerated a number of actions that were illegal but not directly penalizable.  For example:

[rule]No Impact/No Penalty
5.5.5 Illegal forearm or hand contact to an opponent that forces the receiving opponent
off balance, forward, and/or sideways but does not cause the opponent to lose
relative position or the initiator or a teammate to gain relative position. For example,
a slight but observable push with the hands or forearms[/rule]

This was an illegal action but not a penalty.  However... if this illegal action prevented a star pass from occurring, then it was a penalty, because it was preventing a star pass by illegal means.  I.e., an action that did not constitute a Forearm penalty could still be a Star Pass Interference penalty.

In my opinion, this really hasn't changed.  You have an illegal action (contact with an illegal blocking zone) and a game impact in "prevention of a star pass."  The only potential difference is that under the old rules, we separated different parts of the impact spectrum with different verbal cues, and we don't know how that will shake out with the new cues yet.

I think we are in full agreement.  I just didn't say it very well.  I would definitely have called the penalty.  I would not have called an Illegal Procedure call though (it seemed like that was what the original poster was calling), I would have called a Stopped Block Penalty.

My second statement was directed at Llama's post about the potentially bad info being spread, not the original scenario.

 

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