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Author Topic: Keeping track of and communicating skater positions for cut calls  (Read 3196 times)

Offline neurotic

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I'm a skater who recently started reffing on the side. I know what I need to look for in theory, but in situations with a lot of moving skaters, it can be difficult to keep track of who has superior position, much less communicate it to other refs. I find it's particularly difficult if relative positions are changing fast and I'm watching for other things at the exact moment a jammer is knocked out--for example, if I'm watching the jammer's feet or the legality of contact, I might not see who's in front of her at that moment.

So, a few questions:
1) Any mental tips for catching and keeping track of the information as it's happening?
2) What communication practices do you use when a jammer is run back to make sure the refs who see the reentry know who the jammer has to enter behind?
3) If one ref signals a cut and another signals NP/NP (something I've seen frequently), what do you do in the moment? Does it depend on whether one ref might have information the other didn't have, and if so, how do you try to communicate that information quickly enough to resolve it while minimizing impact on gameplay?

Offline Ref Leppard

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Re: Keeping track of and communicating skater positions for cut calls
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 02:28:58 pm »
I'm still fairly new (1 yr) but I think I can help with some of this based on my experience so far.

For #1:  This is a slow process.  Each time you Ref focus on certain penalties (based on what position you are doing).  The next game add something new. etc.  Eventually you'll start to recognize things occurring quicker and quicker. I'm noticing myself being able to process events quicker in my mind now and being able to decide to call or not quickly.

For #2:  The Jam ref "should" have a good idea of which ones the jammer needs to come behind but backup from the pack refs is always good.  I have seen some Refs pass on "23 is hot" meaning #23 is the one they need to come in behind. In some cases I see the OPR that is watching for the cut follow them back (and go slightly out of position) to ensure a cut doesn't happen. 

For #3:  The ref signaling the cut should call it, not necessarily pass it off.   That would override the NP/NP and if it gets reviewed you discuss it.  So far (take this with a grain of salt LOL) the only time I've ever passed off a penalty was when I was a Jam Ref and passed off a clockwise block to the IPR since I had to follow my jammer.  And there will always be situations where other refs have information or see something you don't.  This is why you shouldn't ever feel bad if a call gets overturned in a review. 

I hope some of that helps because I've asked the very same questions LOL

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Keeping track of and communicating skater positions for cut calls
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2017, 02:35:17 pm »
Damn these are good questions.

1: As I referee more, I notice I am better at taking a mental snapshot the moment a skater goes out of bounds and the ability to remember the initiator and all skaters in front of that person. Once I have taken the snapshot in my mind. I repeat to myself (mentally) all of the skaters recycling who have superior position via there color and number. I would be saying "Green 421, Green 1020". I only do this if people are recycling backwards because those are the scenarios where relative position gets mixed up the most.

2:If I am an IPR, I will let the JR or other IPR know that "Green 421 is hot". I've used the word "hot" because its short and can quickly explain the person has superior position to the person trying to re-enter from OOB. Before the game I may explain to my crewmates I use this type of phrase so that they know what it means live. If I am an OPR with an experienced OPR crew, I will track the recycler, and leapfrog positions if I feel like the other OPRs didn't see who had superior position. If they are using body language that tells me they are tracking the same skaters, then I just let them handle it, and move on to watching the action elsewhere. If they are watching a different part of the action, I will keep an eye on the situation.

3: Keep in mind it is possible for a situation to be both a NP/NP and a Cut. Because of this, I feel like our kneejerk reaction shouldn't be to always try to overturn the call but I will explain a situation I have been in and maybe these will help.

Scenario:
I was an IPR, and the JR's jammer was pushed to the inside. Initiator goes down and the Jammer re-enters. JR signals NP/NP. I then communicate to the JR that it looked like a 2 teammate cut in addition to the NP/NP. The JR re-plays the scenario in their head, and agrees it was also a two teammate cut even though it was a NP/NP on the initiator. Had I just called the cut without using that brief amount of communication, I could have caused distrust among my crew, so to balance getting things right with maintaining trust among the crew, I decided to say that quickly live. These types of situations will happen, and sometimes officials disagree, but the best advice I can give, is if you can communicate the facts to the official you disagree with live, good officials will apply that new information to what they saw and re-assess if a penalty or overturn are needed.

Another Scenario:
I was OPR. Jammer is pushed OOB. Jammer re-enters. Initiator's toestop barely touches OOB before the Jammer Re-enters. JR signals the cut. I signal NP/NP, then look at the JR and say "The initiator stepped out, No Pass". JR overturns the penalty and the Jammer returns to the track.

I've noticed that communicating the new missing piece of information live works best on more experienced crews. With newer officials, they may not know how to react to the new information or are overwhelmed by whatever complex thing just happened or haven't worked with officials that do that live. In those cases, I would either continue to enforce the penalty if I feel like there is one, or just talk to the HR between jams if I was trying to assist "undoing" a penalty. I personally won't overturn people live unless I am the HR. There are people who do this even when they are not the HR, but I'm not a fan of that practice.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 02:37:45 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Ref Leppard

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Re: Keeping track of and communicating skater positions for cut calls
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 02:54:32 pm »


3: Keep in mind it is possible for a situation to be both a NP/NP and a Cut. Because of this, I feel like our kneejerk reaction shouldn't be to always try to overturn the call but I will explain a situation I have been in and maybe these will help.

Scenario:
I was an IPR, and the JR's jammer was pushed to the inside. Initiator goes down and the Jammer re-enters. JR signals NP/NP. I then communicate to the JR that it looked like a 2 teammate cut in addition to the NP/NP. The JR re-plays the scenario in their head, and agrees it was also a two teammate cut even though it was a NP/NP on the initiator. Had I just called the cut without using that brief amount of communication, I could have caused distrust among my crew, so to balance getting things right with maintaining trust among the crew, I decided to say that quickly live. These types of situations will happen, and sometimes officials disagree, but the best advice I can give, is if you can communicate the facts to the official you disagree with live, good officials will apply that new information to what they saw and re-assess if a penalty or overturn are needed.


I can see where it might be a matter of preference and who you are working with.  If I was the Jam Ref in this scenario I would prefer you to call the cut and then explain to me why (while I'm staring at my jammer in the box LOL) so I don't accidentally call them lead or throw up points they didn't get.  That seems to me more confusing, especially the lead part.  Points are easier to correct.   I don't feel that should cause distrust in the crew.  I trust everyone to call what they see because they have a different angle.  Or, like in this case, I'm looking down at the jammers feet as well as the blocker and I miss the 2 teammates.

Although I should say I didn't mean for the other ref to call it and then do a quick review to figure out after the fact if it was correct.  If they aren't sure, don't call.  If they are positive that the cut happened, I think they should call it.

Please don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying your method is incorrect, far from it.  I Just know I can't see everything so I have to trust the other officials to call what they see.  Like you said, that method may be better for more experienced referees or a crew that works together frequently. 

And just at my last game I had an IPR (not the HR) undo a call I made on the spot.  I called the star pass interference and he called them right back on to the track.  I didn't mind because the second he called them back I realized that I was, in fact, incorrect in the call (we can all get a little overzealous at times LOL)  In this case the IPR was a VERY experienced ref and I took no offense at it.  But even if it had a newer ref I wouldn't have taken offense.  They had a better angle. 

I think I'm rambling in all this but I hope I explained myself well enough.  I guess I dislike seeing people not make calls because it might cause distrust.  There's ways to do it without insulting the other person. 

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Keeping track of and communicating skater positions for cut calls
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 06:51:13 pm »
You were explaining what you do where there is doubt (Yield to the other person). I was explaining what I do where there are conflicting calls/information ( Both officials sure in their call). For me live communication works best when both officials are sure on a call that conflicts with each other. Yielding to your crewmate works best when their call puts doubt in your call. Ask yourself what you would do when both officials are sure in their call.
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Offline Ref Leppard

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Re: Keeping track of and communicating skater positions for cut calls
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2017, 01:41:07 am »
I see where you are coming from and something like that should be quickly hashed out live to minimize impact.  But in the scenario you gave, BOTH of you were right.  It was in fact a NP/NP on the blocker AND the jammer cut two of their own teammates.  So there is no contradiction in the calls.  You are both sure in your calls, and, in this case, you are both right.  I would call the cut in this case.  It's not overturning the NP/NP at all.

That aside I fully agree with live discussions being needed especially when the calls conflict.  I had a case two nights ago where I made a mistake and had to do a hasty live correction.  So I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

 

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