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Author Topic: Earning lead jammer status – previously passed blocker becomes foremost –in-play  (Read 1818 times)

Offline Stony Hawk

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All,

Can you assist with the below scenario.   The language in the current and prior rule sets didn’t seem to be definitive in this situation.  Hope this is clear.

•   White Jammer (WJ) is in the initial pass.   
•   WJ has legally passed black blockers 1,2,3 but has not yet passed black blocker 4 (BB4)
•   While WJ is still behind BB4, black blocker 2  (BB2) races ahead and regains superior position to WJ on the track
•   WJ finally passes BB4.   BB2 is now the ‘foremost in-play blocker’
•   BB2 knocks WJ OOB and BB2 also falls OOB as a result of this action
•   WJ returns to the track while BB2 is still OOB

So, WJ did not legally pass BB2 on the track while BB2 was considered the foremost in-play blocker.   However, WJ had already earned a legal pass on BB2 earlier during the initial pass.

It seems there are two valid interpretations:

WJ should earn lead jammer status because all blockers had been legally passed on the track
-or-
WJ should not earn lead jammer status since the foremost in-play blocker was not legally passed on the track.

Can the group please assist with this question

Offline Stray Taco

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The "foremost in-play blocker" can be constantly changing. At the moment BB2 goes OOB they are no longer the foremost in-play blocker, and had they already passed the Blocker who is now foremost, they have earned Lead Jammer.

I believe the intent can be gleaned from this sentence in 2.2.2:
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
If both Jammers qualify for Lead at the same moment (for example, the foremost Blocker goes out of play), the foremost Jammer at that moment will be declared Lead.

Note that neither Jammer had earned a pass on the foremost Blocker who went out of play (which can happen by leaving the EZ or going OOB). But as soon as that Blocker went out of play, a Jammer was declared lead without earning another pass.
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Offline Stony Hawk

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Thanks for taking the time Taco.

I’ve carefully read and considered the content of your post, but I find that I am still suffering some bad circular logic in trying to resolve this in my head

I guess there is three elements tripping me up.

1)   What if the OOB track action with  BB2 had happened at the very beginning of jam?   Then I would observe that WJ did not earn a legal pass on BB2.  So, when WJ does finally clear the foremost blocker, lead is not earned as not all blockers (BB2 in this case) were passed legally on the track.   
   Does BB2 status as foremost blocker in my original example create a different treatment?


2)   In my original example, BB2 raced ahead of WJ after being previously passed.   Since she has attained ‘foremost in-play’ blocker status, WJ cannot earn lead until BB2 is passed again.   This leads me to think that BB2 has ‘erased/undone’ her previously passed status.   By this thinking, then it seems that BB2 must be legally passed again in order for WJ to earn lead.

And thus, my ability to think this through begins to break down…..   

If I understand your reply correctly, being foremost in-play blocker does create a special treatment.   As such, it is not necessary that a jammer legally pass  the foremost in-play blocker on the track if that blocker goes OOB or OOP.

3)   Last wrinkle:    the rules correction you posted assumes that the jammers are in-play when the foremost goes OOB or OOP.   In my example, WJ was OOB.    Does this negate the special treatment that seems to be implied by the rules clarification you posted?

Offline Ref Leppard

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Here's my thoughts. 

#1:  I believe you are exactly right.  This is a standard No Pass/No Penalty situation and will prevent the jammer from gaining lead unless they go back and repass BB2.   

#2:  The Jammer already earned a pass on BB2 (and has now earned pass on all 4 of them)  So I believe they would be whistled lead the moment they step back on to the track (as long as no other blockers move in front of them)

#3: The clarification is really meant for when the jammers almost tie for lead but it shows that the blocker going OOB puts the jammers in front of the foremost blocker in play.  What's assumed in the clarification is that they have already earned passes on all the blockers.  IF the blocker in the clarification was the last pass for one of those jammers, the tie is moot because that's a NP/NP and that jammer can't get lead.


I've always looked at it in two parts.  The first thing is the jammer has to gain passes on all four opposing blockers.  Then they have to get in front of the "foremost blocker in play"  which can even be their own teammate.  In most cases that "foremost blocker in play" is an opposing blocker but not always.  Essentially they have to get their 4 passes and then get in front of the pack before the other jammer.

In #1 above, they didn't get all 4 passes.. no lead.
in #2. Jammer has all 4 passes.  When they step back on (legally) if they are in front, then they gain lead.

I hope that makes sense.

I forgot to add.  Being the "foremost blocker in play" doesn't give/gain any special treatment.  It's simply whichever blocker is in front of the other blockers regardless of which team they are on.  If they go down/OOB then it's the next blocker that's upright and in play.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 11:55:25 pm by Ref Leppard »

Offline Stony Hawk

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Thanks for commenting Ref.

Here is the exact wording of the current rule set.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
2.2.2. Lead Jammer
The Lead Jammer is the first Jammer who earns a pass on the foremost in play Blocker, having already earned a pass on all other in play Blockers.

So, I think I get it now.  If the below is correct, then this settles it for me.

In my example, BB2 looses her status as foremost in-play blocker when she goes OOB.  As such, it is no longer necessary for WJ to earn a pass on this player again.   Is it correct to state that BB2 returns to her previous status of 'all other blockers'?

If so, then I'm good.

Thanks for taking the time
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 04:23:31 pm by Stony Hawk »

Offline AdamSmasher

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Thanks for commenting Ref.

Here is the exact wording of the current rule set.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
2.2.2. Lead Jammer
The Lead Jammer is the first Jammer who earns a pass on the foremost in play Blocker, having already earned a pass on all other in play Blockers.

So, I think I get it now.  If the below is correct, then this settles it for me.

In my example, BB2 looses her status as foremost in-play blocker when she goes OOB.  As such, it is no longer necessary for WJ to earn a pass on this player again.   Is it correct to state that BB2 returns to her previous status of 'all other blockers'?

If so, then I'm good.

Thanks for taking the time

I think this is the simplest way to put it: To earn lead jammer status, you have to earn a pass on the foremost in play blocker.  That means that you have to earn a pass on someone who is at the time you earn the pass the foremost in play blocker.

In your example, the jammer never earns a pass on someone who is the foremost in play blocker at the time the pass is earned.  As such, not lead.

Talking about the OOP blocker in front is a bit of a red herring - if an upright, in bounds jammer exits the engagement zone with a blocker OOP in front of the engagement zone, then she immediately earns a pass on that blocker.  So it's still an earned pass on the foremost in play blocker.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 09:23:46 pm by AdamSmasher »
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Offline General Hellativity

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Thanks for commenting Ref.

Here is the exact wording of the current rule set.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
2.2.2. Lead Jammer
The Lead Jammer is the first Jammer who earns a pass on the foremost in play Blocker, having already earned a pass on all other in play Blockers.

So, I think I get it now.  If the below is correct, then this settles it for me.

In my example, BB2 looses her status as foremost in-play blocker when she goes OOB.  As such, it is no longer necessary for WJ to earn a pass on this player again.   Is it correct to state that BB2 returns to her previous status of 'all other blockers'?

If so, then I'm good.

Thanks for taking the time

I think this is the simplest way to put it: To earn lead jammer status, you have to earn a pass on the foremost in play blocker.  That means that you have to earn a pass on someone who is at the time you earn the pass the foremost in play blocker.


Agreed. Lead jammer is earned when she legally earns a pass on the foremost blocker. If there is no time when she does that before exiting the engagement zone, then she is not Lead Jammer.

One of the things I like about the new rule set is that they seem to have cleaned up the present/past tense problems that previous rule sets have had, for instance the business about earning NOTT points upon passing the first opposing blocker. I remember theoretical arguments about whether, when an opponent is penalized ahead of her, she gets that point immediately or had to pass another blocker, because the tense in the rule was unclear. That's cleaned up now, so there's nowhere in the rule set to point (I don't think) at an example of "present tense means the past too." In which case, this rule could be debatable.

But I think it is clear that this rule says what it means: you have to perform the action of earning a pass on the frontmost blocker to earn Lead. If you have not done that, you cannot be lead.

Offline Divide by Zero

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I think this is the simplest way to put it: To earn lead jammer status, you have to earn a pass on the foremost in play blocker.  That means that you have to earn a pass on someone who is at the time you earn the pass the foremost in play blocker.

In your example, the jammer never earns a pass on someone who is the foremost in play blocker at the time the pass is earned.  As such, not lead.

Talking about the OOP blocker in front is a bit of a red herring - if an upright, in bounds jammer exits the engagement zone with a blocker OOP in front of the engagement zone, then she immediately earns a pass on that blocker.  So it's still an earned pass on the foremost in play blocker.

Consider this scenario. Jammer passes all blockers except one, the currently foremost in-play. All passes were legal. The jammer executes a legal hit on the foremost in-play blocker knocking them down. The jammer then skates past them and completes the initial pass. In this scenario the jammer never passed someone who was the foremost in-play blocker at the time. As soon as the blocker went down they stopped being in-play. So using your logic we would not award lead here? I hope we can all agree that the jammer should actually earn lead here. They did nothing wrong. The fact that an opponent fell should not rob the jammer of lead status.

My understanding is that if the foremost in-play blocker changes to someone behind the jammer we immediately award lead if the jammer's last pass of that blocker was legal (and all other requirements are fulfilled). So if the last blocker in front of the jammer goes down, out of bounds, or out of play we immediately award lead, assuming all previous passes were legal.

Offline Senor Ahzov

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I'd always awarded Lead the moment the Jammer passed the foremost Blocker who was still within the Engagement Zone (even if they were OOB or down -- at the same moment I'd award a point for the foremost Blocker on a scoring trip, basically). So in Divide by Zero's scenario, when the Jammer passes the downed Blocker, they earn that pass and become Lead. Looking at the glossary, though, this doesn't fit the definition of In Play as being "in bounds and upright within the Engagement Zone". As soon as the foremost Blocker falls, they are not In Play so they are not the foremost in-play Blocker.

If three of the four opposition Blockers are in front of the Jammer and they all fall down (simultaneously), does the Jammer get awarded Lead or not? They haven't earned passes on those skaters, nor have they earned a pass on the foremost in-play Blocker having already earned a pass on all other in play Blockers, but they have earned a pass on all of the in-play Blockers and they have earned a pass on the foremost in-play blocker.

I can see a difference for Lead being awarded when a Jammer:
1) "earns a pass on the foremost in play Blocker, having already earned a pass on all other in play Blockers" (as in the rules), vs
2) passes the foremost in play Blocker and has earned passes on all Blockers.

1)
- By the absolute letter, requires that we not award Lead in the above scenario (though this feels like a loophole that goes against the spirit of the rules).
- By common interpretation, Lead is awarded immediately in the above scenario because all forward blockers are no longer in-play and the Jammer has earned a pass all in-play Blockers.
- requires that the final pass be an earned pass. In cases where the final Blocker is passed with a No-Pass, No Point (e.g. a previously-passed Blocker hits the Jammer OOB then goes out; Jammer comes in in front), the Jammer is not Lead.

2)
- We would award Lead in the above scenario once the Black Jammer passes the foremost downed blocker (i.e. the point at which they would have scored four points if they'd been on a scoring trip).
- requires only that the pass was earned at some stage. In cases where the final Blocker is passed with a No-Pass, No Point but the pass was earned previously, Lead is awarded once the Jammer is on track.

Whether the distinction is intentional I don't know, but it makes a difference. I'm not even sure what the intention of the rules is here, because both make a certain amount of sense. 1) is more fully supported by the letter of the rules, but seems more open to bizarre "is that Lead yet?" scenarios.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Consider this scenario. Jammer passes all blockers except one, the currently foremost in-play. All passes were legal. The jammer executes a legal hit on the foremost in-play blocker knocking them down. The jammer then skates past them and completes the initial pass. In this scenario the jammer never passed someone who was the foremost in-play blocker at the time. As soon as the blocker went down they stopped being in-play. So using your logic we would not award lead here? I hope we can all agree that the jammer should actually earn lead here. They did nothing wrong. The fact that an opponent fell should not rob the jammer of lead status.

The critical point is that knocking someone down and then passing them earns superior position on that person.  I.e. the act of knocking them down and passing them counts as earning a pass, where an NI/NP doesn't.  So the act of knocking down and passing the foremost in play blocker counts as earning a pass on the foremost in play blocker.

Quote
My understanding is that if the foremost in-play blocker changes to someone behind the jammer we immediately award lead if the jammer's last pass of that blocker was legal (and all other requirements are fulfilled). So if the last blocker in front of the jammer goes down, out of bounds, or out of play we immediately award lead, assuming all previous passes were legal.

This is a different question - what if the foremost blocker in front of the jammer falls down?  Do we then award lead?  I don't think so.  They have not yet earned that pass. They must still skate forward past the skater to earn the pass. On the other hand, if the foremost blocker goes out of play, then we DO award lead. 

In other words, down and OOB are fundamentaly different from OOP for the purposes of awarding lead jammer.  A blocker who is down or OOB is still available to be passed - it is possible to earn a pass on them.  A blocker who is OOP is NOT available to be passed - the jammer would exit the EZ before passing them.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 03:45:31 pm by AdamSmasher »
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Offline FNZebra

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I suppose it's about time in this thread to drop the mind-bomb reminder for some folks...

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
2.2.2. Lead Jammer
The Lead Jammer is the first Jammer who earns a pass on the foremost in play Blocker, having already earned a pass on all other in play Blockers.

Remember that to earn Lead, all in play Blockers must be passed legally, including teammates. It is possible to pass all opponents legally, but still not earn Lead.
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Offline Axis of Stevil

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+1

I think this is the simplest way to put it: To earn lead jammer status, you have to earn a pass on the foremost in play blocker.  That means that you have to earn a pass on someone who is at the time you earn the pass the foremost in play blocker.

In your example, the jammer never earns a pass on someone who is the foremost in play blocker at the time the pass is earned.  As such, not lead.

Consider this scenario. Jammer passes all blockers except one, the currently foremost in-play. All passes were legal. The jammer executes a legal hit on the foremost in-play blocker knocking them down. The jammer then skates past them and completes the initial pass. In this scenario the jammer never passed someone who was the foremost in-play blocker at the time. As soon as the blocker went down they stopped being in-play. So using your logic we would not award lead here? I hope we can all agree that the jammer should actually earn lead here. They did nothing wrong. The fact that an opponent fell should not rob the jammer of lead status.

My understanding is that if the foremost in-play blocker changes to someone behind the jammer we immediately award lead if the jammer's last pass of that blocker was legal (and all other requirements are fulfilled). So if the last blocker in front of the jammer goes down, out of bounds, or out of play we immediately award lead, assuming all previous passes were legal.

Ding ding ding ding!  Divide by Zero has it absolutely correct.

The Jammer in his scenario would be immediately granted lead jammer status just as the White jammer in Stony Hawk's original scenario should be awarded lead jammer status.

Check out the Rationale of C2.12.  "Lead Jammer is earned when the Jammer has earned a pass on in play Blockers and established a superior position to the foremost in play Blocker".  This has now happened.

This is important because otherwise we enter a situation where White Jammer legally blocks Black Blocker 4 (the foremost in-player blocker) off the track, but while fully out of bounds Black Blocker 4's momentum takes her past the line of where the engagement zone ends.  Now White Jammer is royally screwed -- she can't skate forward to pass Black Blocker 4 because in doing so she exits the engagement zone and is therefore not eligible for lead jammer status.  Now she has to skate clockwise to re-pass the prior in-play Blocker, by which time Black Blocker 4 has re-entered the track.  All she can do is stand there at the front of the engagement zone waiting for Black Blocker 4 to re-enter the track (hoping she doesn't stop to re-tie her shoelace while she's out there).
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline Stray Taco

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I know this is not written in the rules in regards to this topic, but perhaps this concept will eliminate some of the hair splitting scenarios regarding in-play definitions.  (or maybe just create more)

It would seem that jammer and foremost in-play blocker do have some sort of enhanced relationship in regards to game play.   The status of foremost in-play blocker doesn’t necessarily end in a vacuum.   We need to consider the relative status of the jammer as well.
 
As a jam ref, I am watching for the ‘outcome/conclusion’ of the play between foremost –in-play blocker and jammer.

In Divide by Zero’s example, the status of foremost in-play blocker would not end until the ‘outcome’ of the interaction with the jammer was concluded.   Simply being knocked down by the jammer was not enough to end that player’s status as foremost in-play blocker ‘because’ the play with the jammer was not yet concluded.  What if that player quickly stood back up and remained in front of the jammer?   Would they still be considered foremost in-play blocker?

In the case of the original example, the interaction of the foremost in-play blocker and the jammer ‘concluded’ when WJ re-entered the track.   

In AdamSmashers example, the foremost in-play blocker has fallen down.  This action alone did not conclude that player’s status relative to the jammer.  The jammer could either pass this downed skater and earn lead, or the downed skater could stand up again and ‘continue’ the status of foremost in-play blocker.

The above would be consistent with Senor Ahzov’s perspective.   In his example, he cited that lead would be ‘earned’ once the jammer passes the OOB or down foremost blocker. (same as scoring rules)  In order for this to be acceptable, we need to accept that the fallen or OOB skater still has an ‘outcome relationship’ to the jammer.   Jammer passes down skater: outcome = lead jammer.   Skater stands back up:  outcome = not lead, skater resumes status as foremost in-play

The above maybe technically incorrect, but it feels like it keeps with the spirit of the rules.

Any validity to this?
That matches the way I call things. When I'm in my "Jammer Ref" brain, my thought process is to award lead as soon as my Jammer is ahead of all in-play Blockers as long as lead is open and they have earned a pass on all of the in-play Blockers. This greatly simplifies things but I believe captures the intent and spirit of the rules.
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Offline Stony Hawk

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It looks like Stevil and I posted at the same time.  I removed my post until I could understand Stevil info.    But, as long you captured it, maybe its worthwhile to add to the discussion
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 06:42:32 pm by Stony Hawk »

Offline llama of death

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My way of looking at it internally, a check list: (if yes to all then I should signal lead)

Is lead jammer status open?
Does my jammer still have the ability to earn lead? (hasn't been sent to the box yet, etc etc)
Has my jammer earned a pass on all blockers? (ALL pass types count here so be sure)
Is my jammer now ahead of all in play blockers?

If the answer is yes to all of these they should be signaled lead.

The intention of 2.2.2 is not to make a loophole where they must earn all the passes, and then earn some pass on the current front player. Just to have eared all the passes at some point in their initial trip, then when they are in front of all in play blockers they are lead.

Yall are making this harder than it needs to be.
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