Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: Doubt about score points. by Divide by Zero
Today at 03:23:16 pm

Doubt about score points. by Destructor
Today at 12:47:07 pm

What Happened to 2015 rule 5.4.8 (arm pinning) by Cheat Skates
Today at 04:02:00 am

Re: star pass and cutting penalty by Bluebeard
Today at 01:25:01 am

Re: star pass and cutting penalty by Triop
September 19, 2017, 11:07:36 pm

Re: Is this an expulsion-level action? by Vanilla VICE
September 19, 2017, 09:08:06 pm

Re: star pass and cutting penalty by Vanilla VICE
September 19, 2017, 08:56:02 pm

Re: Is this an expulsion-level action? by Triop
September 19, 2017, 07:11:38 pm

Re: Is this an expulsion-level action? by Ria
September 19, 2017, 06:03:17 pm

Re: Is this an expulsion-level action? by Divide by Zero
September 19, 2017, 05:38:18 pm

Author Topic: Too Many Skaters 2017  (Read 719 times)

Offline llama of death

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 290
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • Referee
  • League Affiliation: Rollling Hills Derby Dames, WheatWhackers (JRDA)
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Too Many Skaters 2017
« on: June 22, 2017, 05:45:13 pm »
0
WFTDA 2017 rules are clear that the game is played with 4 blockers per team and a Jammer, and that flagrant [intentional? and obvious?] violations of the rules are to be met with a penalty.

'Too many skaters' had been a penalty of last resort for years now, preferring instead to just remove a skater from the track before it has impact.

WFTDA 2017 rules make no explicit mention of this call, and that is fine. It is still clearly a rules violation that needs to be fixed without penalty unless it is "flagrant." But who does the penalty go to now?

Team penalties are now uniformly assessed to the captain (during the next jam if they are not on the track at the time). Some team penalties mid jam are given to the offending skater -> the nearest skater (in that order of importance).

I am either missing something or this is a judgment call.

If it is judgment call how have other crews been handling situations where a penalty is needed? Say, a jammer gets lead as a direct result of having 5 blockers on their team at the linup, enough to hold the opposing jammer and play active O at the same time? (Clearly not everyone agrees with me on calling that as a penalty but after three loud clear warnings they are both ignoring the officials and gaining a direct advantage from an illegal status)
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline AdamSmasher

  • NSO
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • Stats Sheet: 3
  • League Affiliation: Lansing Derby Vixens
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Level 3
Re: Too Many Skaters 2017
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 12:36:10 pm »
+2
As I mentioned elsewhere - the overwhelming practice is to read the 2017 rules to say that you handle it just like the 2015 rules.  An extra skater that affects gameplay is an issue that cannot be rectified merely by issuing penalties, so you call the jam, issue a "Too Many Skaters" penalty to whoever refused to leave, and restart with the correct number of skaters.
I'm better at remembering "Smasher" is me than "Adam."
Rules Colored Glasses - Useful Officiating Stuff

Offline SeerSin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 993
  • Stats Sheet: 55
  • League Affiliation: Minnesota Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Too Many Skaters 2017
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 09:58:52 pm »
+2
Ideally you catch it before the jam starts when it's easier to get the skater off the track. If the extra skater results in an advantage(like the opposing team getting lead) before you can send them off then call the jam and issue a delay of game penalty.

Offline AdamSmasher

  • NSO
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • Stats Sheet: 3
  • League Affiliation: Lansing Derby Vixens
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 1
  • NSO Certification Level: Level 3
Re: Too Many Skaters 2017
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 02:22:22 pm »
+2
Ideally you catch it before the jam starts when it's easier to get the skater off the track. If the extra skater results in an advantage(like the opposing team getting lead) before you can send them off then call the jam and issue a delay of game penalty.

If you call the jam after it has already started, under the old practices, that would be a Too Many Skaters illegal procedure, not a delay of game. And the old ones are all we have at the moment.
I'm better at remembering "Smasher" is me than "Adam."
Rules Colored Glasses - Useful Officiating Stuff

Offline Heisenbout

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Chihuahua Roller Derby
Re: Too Many Skaters 2017
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2017, 12:25:24 am »
0
Hello everyone,

As your talking about this situation i got an scenario for you.
This happened last week in a state tournament from Mexico.

Jam about to start, yellow jammer starts in penalty box... I see that another yellow jammer its behind the jammer line, i didn't say anything because she or her team is supposed to realize by them selves (right?). Also i thought that the reff jammer was aware of this situation, so he would tell jammer to return to the bench, (plus i'am also hearing yellow coach shouting to her, to get out from the track).
Nothing happens, and the jam starts than she begins to play, so then i got confused because nobody sent her back to the bench, and suddenly she was jammer leader, so i just called off the jam, to make everyone clear about the situation.

What would you have done in that situation from the beginning? What does the rule set dictate?
And consider it from the point of view of the JR, OPR, HR.

Online Speedy Convalesce

  • NSO
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Rhein-Neckar Delta Quads
Re: Too Many Skaters 2017
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2017, 11:29:07 am »
0
One Ref who recognized the situation should have issued a warning, e.g. "Yellow team, your Jammer is in the box." This may be skipped, if the team is already aware and working on resolving the issue.
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
(4.2.3) Officials and Skaters should work together to ensure that the game flows according to the rules.

The JR should have been positioned opposite from the box, where their Jammer was located.

Once the Jam started, there are 2 possibilities:

If the has fielded fewer than 4 Blockers (e.g. because they assumed the skater in the box was a blocker), the Skater lining up with a Jammer helmet cover on the track is in fact a Blocker in an illegal starting position. They should be issued an illegal positioning penalty and an instruction to remove their helmet cover.

If there are 4 Blockers for yellow team, the Skater lining up with the Jammer helmet cover should be sent to the bench. If they don't leave the Jam and their presence has impact, the Jam should be called and the offending Player is penalized (as Blocker). This does not change if the "Return to your bench" instruction is not given, as the penalty is for altering the game flow through an inappropriate action (fielding 5 Blockers) and not for failing to follow a Refs instruction.
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
(4.2.3) Any inappropriate action that causes the period clock to stop, prevents a Jam from starting, or ends a Jam prematurely should be penalized.

Offline Heisenbout

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Chihuahua Roller Derby
Re: Too Many Skaters 2017
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2017, 12:37:51 am »
0
Totally get it,

Maybe my mistake was that i wasn't aware that the JR, was looking on the other side of the track in to the penalty box.

So now i know that our mission is to prevent this kind of situations and ask the player to leave before there's an impact in the game that causes the jam to be called off.

But what exactly is an impact? I mean at what point do i still have the chance to call a return to your bench signal.

And if in that case if there's 5 blockers on the track, but the jam has been running enough to prevent points being made, whats the action that the HR has to take, to settle the points situation,
Does he decides to lower the scores?
Does he wait for the teams to ask for an official review?

I hope my questions aren't so silly, and obvious but i really appreciate your sharing knowledge



Online Speedy Convalesce

  • NSO
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Rhein-Neckar Delta Quads
Re: Too Many Skaters 2017
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2017, 01:29:41 pm »
0
There is no official definition of what is impact in this situation. That's left to Ref discretion. Most Refs would consider the offending team getting lead to be impact. And if the offending player never interacts with anybody else it's clearly no impact. Beteween those cases it's a large gray area.

If the jam is only called after points have been scored, those points stand:
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
(3.5) However, points awarded (or denied) correctly, given the information available at the time, may not be taken away (or awarded) later. For example, a Jammer who exits the Engagement Zone and is awarded four points has earned those points, even if upon review they were found to have committed a penalty two trips prior (and thus would not have been able to earn those points).

Offline Heisenbout

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • League Affiliation: Chihuahua Roller Derby
Re: Too Many Skaters 2017
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 12:33:51 am »
0
Ok i understand, and earning points with an extra jammer could not be posible because the reff jammer would be looking at the penalty box to the real jammer.

Thanks Speedy

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 1765
Views: 2677
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 1634
Views: 2927
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 1671
Views: 3347
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2522
Views: 3485
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal