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Author Topic: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?  (Read 1903 times)

Offline Terrifying Skate Monkey

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Saw something at a game on the weekend that's left me with a question. The jammer had her helmet cover off, and she tucked the corner of it into her jersey. The majority of the cover was sticking out and still visible.

The casebook example says that sticking the star into your jersey is a penalty, but the rationale is all about hiding it being unsporting. I took from that the general principle that "concealing the star is a penalty," but the majority of the refs that day had taken the additional more specific principle that "sticking the star in your jersey is a penalty, even if it's not concealed."

Thoughts? Am I way off-base to think this should have been a no-call? The jammer did do almost exactly the thing described as a penalty in C4.60, so I certainly see where the others were coming from.

For reference:
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Scenario C4.60

The Jam starts and White Jammer quickly earns Lead. Red Jammer immediately pulls off their Star and tries to pass it over their opponents’ heads to Red Pivot, but is unable to do so. Red Jammer stuffs the Star into their jersey so they don’t have to hold it as they work their way through the Pack.

Outcome: Red Jammer has hidden the Star from their opponents, also hiding the fact that they are their team’s Jammer. Red Jammer is penalized.

Rationale: It is unsporting to attempt to hide your role in the Jam.

Keep in Mind: If Red Jammer had held onto the Star instead of hiding it in their jersey, no penalty would be issued because they would still be visibly in control of the Star.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 09:07:07 pm »
0
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Outcome: Red Jammer has hidden the Star from their opponents

I feel like this is the metric. Is it hidden? If yes, then it is penalty worthy. If it is still showing then it is not hidden and not penalty worthy.
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 12:22:39 am »
+1
Except...

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
From 2.2.1:

The Star may only be carried by the Jammer wearing it on their helmet, or by that team’s Jammer or Pivot holding it in their grasp.

That seems pretty clear that it MUST be held.  On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd issue a penalty for that, or if I did, what it would be.  But the rule looks pretty unambiguous.
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Offline Terrifying Skate Monkey

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 01:29:48 pm »
0
That seems pretty clear that it MUST be held.  On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd issue a penalty for that, or if I did, what it would be.  But the rule looks pretty unambiguous.

Ah! Thank you! I didn't think to check the gameplay section. I still haven't entirely wrapped my head around the layout of the current rules documents.

I think they put it down as an illegal procedure. Probably a star pass violation?

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 01:59:38 pm »
0
Even if it is a penalty for 2.2.1, I still don't think it can be one via C4.60. Perhaps it comes down to this list:
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
A team gains advantage if an illegal act results in:

    an opponent becoming (or remaining) unable to block
    a gain of position or a teammate’s gain of position
    the game flow being altered

4.2.4. Other Illegal Procedures

Skaters who violate the rules of the game should be penalized if the violation has a significant impact on the game. Examples of this are listed in the Rules of Flat Track Roller Derby Casebook; however, Skaters and Officials should work to ensure that the rules are followed as swiftly as possible, and to rectify any illegal or potentially illegal play before it has sufficient impact on the game to warrant penalization. Nevertheless, if a technical violation by one team results in an advantage, this should be penalized.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 02:02:35 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Joker

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 07:38:34 pm »
0
That seems pretty clear that it MUST be held.  On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd issue a penalty for that, or if I did, what it would be.  But the rule looks pretty unambiguous.

Ah! Thank you! I didn't think to check the gameplay section. I still haven't entirely wrapped my head around the layout of the current rules documents.

I think they put it down as an illegal procedure. Probably a star pass violation?
I believe it was an illegal proceure call as "unsporting conduct "

Offline Heisenbout

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 12:28:48 am »
0
Quote
I believe it was an illegal proceure call as "unsporting conduct "

Could you please explain how did you come up with this conclusion?

Offline Triop

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2017, 10:39:56 am »
0
Quote
I believe it was an illegal proceure call as "unsporting conduct "

Could you please explain how did you come up with this conclusion?

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Scenario C4.60
The Jam starts and White Jammer quickly earns Lead. Red Jammer immediately pulls off their Star and tries to pass it over their opponents’ heads to Red Pivot, but is unable to do so. Red Jammer stuffs the Star into their jersey so they don’t have to hold it as they work their way through the Pack.

Outcome: Red Jammer has hidden the Star from their opponents, also hiding the fact that they are their team’s Jammer. Red Jammer is penalized.

Rationale: It is unsporting to attempt to hide your role in the Jam.

Keep in Mind: If Red Jammer had held onto the Star instead of hiding it in their jersey, no penalty would be issued because they would still be visibly in control of the Star.

Could be that wording?

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2017, 03:43:01 pm »
+1
c4.60 is under the unsporting conduct section of the rules (4.3), so that makes sense to me

4.2 covers illegal procedures, so I believe this to use the misconduct verbal cues
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Offline SeerSin

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2017, 01:05:14 pm »
0
In this case the word "stuffed" would indicate the star is mostly or completly inside the jammer's jersey. There's no requirement to keep it in their hand. In fact if the jammer doesn't want to hold the star they can drop it on the track and pick it up on their next lap without any penalty. Concealing the star is what's illegal. If you're uncertain a jammer's actions qualify as "concealing", a warning between jams is an appropriate remedy.

Offline Triop

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2017, 05:37:30 am »
+1
In this case the word "stuffed" would indicate the star is mostly or completly inside the jammer's jersey. There's no requirement to keep it in their hand. In fact if the jammer doesn't want to hold the star they can drop it on the track and pick it up on their next lap without any penalty. Concealing the star is what's illegal. If you're uncertain a jammer's actions qualify as "concealing", a warning between jams is an appropriate remedy.

Could you explain your reasoning behind the no requirement to keep it in their hand? Do you mean just in the context that they don't have to maintain control of the star? The rules seem pretty clear that while in control of the star that it has to be either in your hand or on your helmet.

I was at the event in the original question and since this event I've decided to judge whether the star is hidden or not is that if I took a picture of this person and showed it to someone else could that person immediately identify the pictured persons current position correctly. If that answer is "They could be this or that" then skater has hidden their role. I haven't had to use it much though to see how well it works in practice.

We've also had refs in our area who have been giving this penalty to skaters who have the star in their hand but it's balled up enough that you can literally just see the star in the palm of the skaters hand. I think the real question that the rules aren't clear on is just how much of the star/cover has to be visible for it to not be considered hidden?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:39:01 am by Triop »

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2017, 12:25:19 am »
+1
I was at the event in the original question and since this event I've decided to judge whether the star is hidden or not is that if I took a picture of this person and showed it to someone else could that person immediately identify the pictured persons current position correctly. If that answer is "They could be this or that" then skater has hidden their role. I haven't had to use it much though to see how well it works in practice.

That is not a good measure for whether the star is hidden or not. A jammer could be facing you, holding the cover in a way that almost all of it is not concealed by their hand, but holding it behind their back. It is only hidden by virtue of you having the wrong angle to see it. By that measure, almost every mid-pack star pass would involve concealing the star.

I would not penalize a skater who tucked a helmet cover into their jersey, so long as it remained visible. There just isn't impact there.

We've also had refs in our area who have been giving this penalty to skaters who have the star in their hand but it's balled up enough that you can literally just see the star in the palm of the skaters hand. I think the real question that the rules aren't clear on is just how much of the star/cover has to be visible for it to not be considered hidden?

I wouldn't penalize for what you describe there either, it's still visible. The rules will often not define every last detail, and that is a good thing.
To tell you how I would judge this: If the cover is balled up in a skater's hand, and I can only see enough color that I have to seriously wonder if it is the helmet cover, or if it's nail polish, then I will penalize. It I can tell that it is a piece of cloth matching what I know the helmet cover to look like, that's OK.
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Offline Triop

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2017, 05:21:11 am »
+1
I supposed I should be clear, I meant the cover is in your field of view. Look at me writing things that aren't clear and causing confusion. I should apply for the rules committee.

I feel like the intention of the rules is that you should be able to tell what cover they are holding if they are in control of a cover. That means a good portion of the cover should be actually visible including being able to identify either the stripe or a star as part of that cover.

I also argued against the penalty for the jammer that had the cover balled in their hand with the star visible in their palm but was unable to have it not called.

I just wish the rules were actually clear and said what they meant instead of telling interpretive stories and hoping everyone infers the same thing.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2017, 02:38:17 pm »
+2
In this case the word "stuffed" would indicate the star is mostly or completly inside the jammer's jersey. There's no requirement to keep it in their hand. In fact if the jammer doesn't want to hold the star they can drop it on the track and pick it up on their next lap without any penalty. Concealing the star is what's illegal. If you're uncertain a jammer's actions qualify as "concealing", a warning between jams is an appropriate remedy.

There emphatically IS a requirement to keep it in their hand, as quoted above:

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
From 2.2.1:

The Star may only be carried by the Jammer wearing it on their helmet, or by that team’s Jammer or Pivot holding it in their grasp.

That is clearly a requirement.  The question is - does violating this requirement have impact which rises to the level of penalization?  Personally?  Meh.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2017, 03:31:15 pm »
+1
I just wish the rules were actually clear and said what they meant instead of telling interpretive stories and hoping everyone infers the same thing.

I'm glad they don't. For a long time, the rules were becoming more and more cumbersome. All while allowing for less and less discretion. This resulted in a lot of referees feeling there was a set of instructions they were required to follow explicitly in all cases. That meant a lot of calls that were made without actually thinking about impact to the game.

By not defining everything (this is actually a very good example of one that I definitely think should not be more defined), we have to be smarter about what is happening in the game and assess the impact in a given situation. We have to think for ourselves.

And I don't think that the hope is that everyone infers the same thing. I think that we are specifically being asked to not be automatons and make a judgment call.

Getting everyone to call everything the same way is a fools errand. If you watch any professional sport, you will not see the officials being completely consistent across the entire sport. What you hope for is that the officials for any given game are consistent through the entirety of that game. Early in the game, the teams get a feel for how the officials will operate, and should be able to expect that throughout the game.

That is what we should be striving for. Across the entire sport, sure, shoot for consistency, but (personally) I think the acceptable margin for error is larger than most would think.
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