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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible? by Vanilla VICE
July 23, 2017, 03:43:01 pm

Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible? by Triop
July 22, 2017, 10:39:56 am

Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible? by Heisenbout
July 22, 2017, 12:28:48 am

Author Topic: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?  (Read 702 times)

Offline Terrifying Skate Monkey

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Saw something at a game on the weekend that's left me with a question. The jammer had her helmet cover off, and she tucked the corner of it into her jersey. The majority of the cover was sticking out and still visible.

The casebook example says that sticking the star into your jersey is a penalty, but the rationale is all about hiding it being unsporting. I took from that the general principle that "concealing the star is a penalty," but the majority of the refs that day had taken the additional more specific principle that "sticking the star in your jersey is a penalty, even if it's not concealed."

Thoughts? Am I way off-base to think this should have been a no-call? The jammer did do almost exactly the thing described as a penalty in C4.60, so I certainly see where the others were coming from.

For reference:
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Scenario C4.60

The Jam starts and White Jammer quickly earns Lead. Red Jammer immediately pulls off their Star and tries to pass it over their opponents’ heads to Red Pivot, but is unable to do so. Red Jammer stuffs the Star into their jersey so they don’t have to hold it as they work their way through the Pack.

Outcome: Red Jammer has hidden the Star from their opponents, also hiding the fact that they are their team’s Jammer. Red Jammer is penalized.

Rationale: It is unsporting to attempt to hide your role in the Jam.

Keep in Mind: If Red Jammer had held onto the Star instead of hiding it in their jersey, no penalty would be issued because they would still be visibly in control of the Star.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 09:07:07 pm »
0
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Outcome: Red Jammer has hidden the Star from their opponents

I feel like this is the metric. Is it hidden? If yes, then it is penalty worthy. If it is still showing then it is not hidden and not penalty worthy.
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Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 12:22:39 am »
0
Except...

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
From 2.2.1:

The Star may only be carried by the Jammer wearing it on their helmet, or by that team’s Jammer or Pivot holding it in their grasp.

That seems pretty clear that it MUST be held.  On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd issue a penalty for that, or if I did, what it would be.  But the rule looks pretty unambiguous.
I'm better at remembering "Smasher" is me than "Adam."
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Offline Terrifying Skate Monkey

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 01:29:48 pm »
0
That seems pretty clear that it MUST be held.  On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd issue a penalty for that, or if I did, what it would be.  But the rule looks pretty unambiguous.

Ah! Thank you! I didn't think to check the gameplay section. I still haven't entirely wrapped my head around the layout of the current rules documents.

I think they put it down as an illegal procedure. Probably a star pass violation?

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 01:59:38 pm »
0
Even if it is a penalty for 2.2.1, I still don't think it can be one via C4.60. Perhaps it comes down to this list:
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
A team gains advantage if an illegal act results in:

    an opponent becoming (or remaining) unable to block
    a gain of position or a teammate’s gain of position
    the game flow being altered

4.2.4. Other Illegal Procedures

Skaters who violate the rules of the game should be penalized if the violation has a significant impact on the game. Examples of this are listed in the Rules of Flat Track Roller Derby Casebook; however, Skaters and Officials should work to ensure that the rules are followed as swiftly as possible, and to rectify any illegal or potentially illegal play before it has sufficient impact on the game to warrant penalization. Nevertheless, if a technical violation by one team results in an advantage, this should be penalized.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 02:02:35 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Joker

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 07:38:34 pm »
0
That seems pretty clear that it MUST be held.  On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd issue a penalty for that, or if I did, what it would be.  But the rule looks pretty unambiguous.

Ah! Thank you! I didn't think to check the gameplay section. I still haven't entirely wrapped my head around the layout of the current rules documents.

I think they put it down as an illegal procedure. Probably a star pass violation?
I believe it was an illegal proceure call as "unsporting conduct "

Offline Heisenbout

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 12:28:48 am »
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Quote
I believe it was an illegal proceure call as "unsporting conduct "

Could you please explain how did you come up with this conclusion?

Offline Triop

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2017, 10:39:56 am »
0
Quote
I believe it was an illegal proceure call as "unsporting conduct "

Could you please explain how did you come up with this conclusion?

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Scenario C4.60
The Jam starts and White Jammer quickly earns Lead. Red Jammer immediately pulls off their Star and tries to pass it over their opponents’ heads to Red Pivot, but is unable to do so. Red Jammer stuffs the Star into their jersey so they don’t have to hold it as they work their way through the Pack.

Outcome: Red Jammer has hidden the Star from their opponents, also hiding the fact that they are their team’s Jammer. Red Jammer is penalized.

Rationale: It is unsporting to attempt to hide your role in the Jam.

Keep in Mind: If Red Jammer had held onto the Star instead of hiding it in their jersey, no penalty would be issued because they would still be visibly in control of the Star.

Could be that wording?

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Is it still a "star stash" if the helmet cover is mostly visible?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2017, 03:43:01 pm »
0
c4.60 is under the unsporting conduct section of the rules (4.3), so that makes sense to me

4.2 covers illegal procedures, so I believe this to use the misconduct verbal cues
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