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Author Topic: Two Pivots and a star pass  (Read 753 times)

Offline EL-REFE

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Two Pivots and a star pass
« on: July 10, 2017, 05:12:18 pm »
0
I've seen this topic on other threads, but I wanted to put this scenario since it was a mess.

Jam started with a Red Pivot in the box and Red Pivot on the track. We (refs) missed that there were two pivots.
There was a star pass to the "on the track" Red Pivot during the initial trip. The Red Pivot in the box was released while this was happening, so that is when it was noticed we had two pivots for the same team. We told the pivot that came out the box to remove their cover. The jam ended and no points were scored by the red pivot turned jammer.

I know we screwed that up, but please give your input on how this should be handled correctly:

1) during the jam in progress
2) there is an official review asking for a penalty on the red team for having an extra pivot that became a jammer. Who gets the penalty if any?



Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Two Pivots and a star pass
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 11:38:45 pm »
+1
I've seen this topic on other threads, but I wanted to put this scenario since it was a mess.

Jam started with a Red Pivot in the box and Red Pivot on the track. We (refs) missed that there were two pivots.
There was a star pass to the "on the track" Red Pivot during the initial trip. The Red Pivot in the box was released while this was happening, so that is when it was noticed we had two pivots for the same team. We told the pivot that came out the box to remove their cover. The jam ended and no points were scored by the red pivot turned jammer.

I know we screwed that up, but please give your input on how this should be handled correctly:

1) during the jam in progress
2) there is an official review asking for a penalty on the red team for having an extra pivot that became a jammer. Who gets the penalty if any?

The pivot in the box WAS the pivot, so during the jam in progress, the correct action would have been to have the OTHER pivot remove the cover.  I suspect you already knew that, however.

Unfortunately for a team using their official review, there's really no penalty here to be issued, an no other actions to be taken after the fact.  Sometimes you have to just tell the coach, "Yes, the officials made an error.  There's really no remedy I can offer you other than saying we'll try not to let it happen again."
I'm better at remembering "Smasher" is me than "Adam."
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Offline Garrotin Keillor

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Re: Two Pivots and a star pass
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 08:13:44 am »
+1
I've seen this topic on other threads, but I wanted to put this scenario since it was a mess.

Jam started with a Red Pivot in the box and Red Pivot on the track. We (refs) missed that there were two pivots.
There was a star pass to the "on the track" Red Pivot during the initial trip. The Red Pivot in the box was released while this was happening, so that is when it was noticed we had two pivots for the same team. We told the pivot that came out the box to remove their cover. The jam ended and no points were scored by the red pivot turned jammer.

I know we screwed that up, but please give your input on how this should be handled correctly:

1) during the jam in progress
2) there is an official review asking for a penalty on the red team for having an extra pivot that became a jammer. Who gets the penalty if any?


Oh man.....

1)  I'd probably call the jam.  Alternately, you could probably call an illegal star pass, direct the jammer to the penalty box and the faux pivot (the skater incorrectly wearing the pivot cover) to remove the cover and/or leave the track.  But calling it dead would probably be less confusing, honestly.   

2)  Although officials are responsible in part for ensuring all teams have the appropriate number of skaters, and of the correct position, fielded (5.2), ultimately the responsibility lies with the team itself.
 There are two possible penalties I could see in this situation.

Penalty one - (as I said above) illegal star pass.  The team should be aware of their players. The pivot in the box was the real pivot for the jam.   Had this been caught earlier, the faux pivot would have the one instructed to remove the cover/leave the track.  Rule-wise, they are not the pivot, and technically the jammer passed the star to a non-pivot.
Penalty two - Illegal procedure, too many skaters.  I am guessing the team just sent a full blocking line-up out, as, if they'd checked the box they would have seen the pivot.  If this was indeed the case and the refs called off the jam, penalty to the faux pivot.   

However, although I think one or both of these penalties are technically warranted, considering multiple officials missed this and red didn't end up scoring points, I would consider assigning either one overly harsh.  That said, I would consider faux pivot's actions more willfully negligent than the jammer's.  I also think the amount of confusion that would ensue for calling the illegal pass but allowing the jam to continue would itself be a detriment to the gameflow.  If I HAD to assign a penalty, I'd call the jam and, if possible, send faux pivot to the box (as a non-pivot).

....although I'm certainly open to other opinions....


Offline Heisenbout

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Re: Two Pivots and a star pass
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 01:02:23 am »
0
Hello everyone,
Adam,

How can you just ask the pivot to remove the pivot cover, if on top of it was the jammer cover, and not issued a penalty.

Cause (and this rationality goes in to the official review case) if the real pivot was on the box, then the pivot with the jammer cover, was just a regular blocker, that would be illegal because:
1.- Its an illegal star pass, as he is not the pivot for that jam
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
2.2.4.
If the Star is passed illegally, the initial Jammer remains the Jammer and the initiator of
the Pass should be penalized.
This includes:
releasing the Star into the grasp of a Skater other than their Pivot
releasing the Star into the Pivot’s grasp while one of the two parties is down, out of
bounds, out of play, or en route to the Penalty Box
releasing the Star into the Pivot’s grasp while the Pivot is in queue for the Penalty
Box (even if the Pivot is not yet en route)
releasing the Star into the grasp of a Pivot who is not wearing the Stripe
Also lets remember case 2.19: Accidentally coming into possession of the star briefly is not a penalty as long as it is not “controlled.”

2.- As him being a blocker, he was out of play every time he came in and out of the pack.

Please advice on my thoughts, and excuse if i couldn't put the rule in the correct format, i have zero experience on blogs.




Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Two Pivots and a star pass
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2017, 04:44:11 am »
0
Hello everyone,
Adam,

How can you just ask the pivot to remove the pivot cover, if on top of it was the jammer cover, and not issued a penalty.


Oh, no, I was talking about what should have happened right at the beginning - the on the track pivot should have been directed to remove their cover as soon as the jam started.  (Heck - they should have been warned *before* the jam that they weren't the pivot.)

Once a skater who isn't the pivot has been allowed to accept a star pass and score points, we're so far off the rails that there really isn't a right answer.  We're off in what Danger Muffin refers to as "magic land," because derby is so broken at this point that the rules really aren't equipped to tell us what to do.

Personally, I'd seriously consider calling the jam to sort it all out - game play has been so affected at this point that simply issuing penalties can't really fix things.

I'm better at remembering "Smasher" is me than "Adam."
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Offline Heisenbout

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Re: Two Pivots and a star pass
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2017, 11:58:17 pm »
0
jajajaj

Sorry i should have known that you referred about the beginning on the jam.

So you are saying that there is no penalty to issue on the official review, if the review is upon the two pivot covers on the jam, am i correct?

But if the team ask's for a review on the star pass, you would also say that there is no penalty to issue?

Also, just like the previous post, we know if the jam is called off somebody has to go to box, right?

And i'm sorry to keep pushing on this case, and i'm pretty much familiar with the "magic land" jajaja, but i'am really trying to get all the possible answers from people with experience,(needless to say it wont be only in this post sorry) because i don't really get the opportunity to official games and attend to WFTDA reff clinics, like you guys do.

Thank you all for your help


Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: Two Pivots and a star pass
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 03:34:38 pm »
0
Quite a bit here.

So you are saying that there is no penalty to issue on the official review, if the review is upon the two pivot covers on the jam, am i correct?

I think the key metric is impact.  If the jammer takes off the cover, and all the opponents swarm the false pivot, allowing the OTHER jammer to sneak past and score points - there's a pretty good case to be made there that the presence of the false pivot cover had an impact on the game.  In that case, a penalty might very well be warranted just for having the false cover on.

On the other hand, if the presence of the second pivot has no discernable effect, no star pass happens, everyone just plays derby - I'd be hesitant to call a penalty for that alone, since the refs should have caught that early.

Quote
But if the team ask's for a review on the star pass, you would also say that there is no penalty to issue?

Once the star pass occurs, the presence of the incorrect pivot unambiguously HAS had an effect on the game.  Even though the jammer was acting in what she thought was good faith, and even though the refs could have caught this, in the end, Garrotin Keilor is right; it is the responsibility of the teams to make sure they have the correct number of skaters fielded in the correct positions.

As this was clearly a star pass to an ineligible blocker, I *would* award that penalty after the fact, and in fact, might not charge the team an official review to do so.

After a chaotic jam like this, I would say that the officiating crew should conference quickly to determine what they wish to do *before* hearing any official reviews, and inform the coaches of the results.  That way, the coach isn't trying to use an official review to request a decision that the officials have already made.

Quote
Also, just like the previous post, we know if the jam is called off somebody has to go to box, right?

I'm really hesitant to make that a general rule.  At low levels, sometimes things just go utterly off the rails and trying to identify someone to penalize for it is just not a great idea.  MOST of the time if the refs have to call off the jam for an action that's had an unrecoverable impact on gameplay, someone is getting a penalty, but I don't think you can say that's true EVERY time.
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Offline Heisenbout

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Re: Two Pivots and a star pass
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 08:27:36 pm »
0
Thanks Adam,

Now this situation is clear to me, cause i was thinking actually about the impact that the star pass had on a false pivot, but then you all help me to know what to do in case of having two pivots on the track. (such as not to freak out and try to call a penalty jajajaj)

Quote
I'm really hesitant to make that a general rule.  At low levels, sometimes things just go utterly off the rails and trying to identify someone to penalize for it is just not a great idea.  MOST of the time if the refs have to call off the jam for an action that's had an unrecoverable impact on gameplay, someone is getting a penalty, but I don't think you can say that's true EVERY time.

I get this situation, and yes i was thinking about calling off the jam, when a penalty situation is getting out of control.



Offline Garrotin Keillor

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Re: Two Pivots and a star pass
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2017, 07:32:52 am »
0


Also, just like the previous post, we know if the jam is called off somebody has to go to box, right?


5.2 of the rules state jams can be called for "illegal play that cannot be rectified via penalty assessment".  While I'm reckoning that's mainly referring to expulsions, since it doesn't explicitly say "expulsion", I would assume something like this scenario could fall under this.  The rules (5.4) also state officials need to be CERTAIN a penalty is warranted before assessing it.  Not "reasonably sure", but certain.

So if you see a jam that's out of control, I say you should definitely call it as soon as you recognized it's FUBAR in the interest of avoiding more damage.  But if you're not certain which penalty is warranted and to whom it should be assessed, don't feel a pressure that someone *needs* to go to the box just because the jam was called.

In the cold light of day it's easy to look back (and double-check the rule book!) and see that, yes, it was an illegal pass and deserves a penalty.  But while you're in the heat of the game and this is the first time you're seeing this specific scenario and you're pretty sure that was an illegal star pass, but not certain, honestly you (personally) shouldn't penalize.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 07:34:24 am by Garrotin Keillor »

 

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