intruder

Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Nashville Rollergirls 2018 Scrimmage-A-Thon by Major Wood
November 27, 2017, 03:04:57 pm

Low Down Throw Down 2018 - Augusta, GA April 13-15 by Damn Yankee
November 17, 2017, 09:35:51 pm

Re: Rules 2017 and old 2.4.2.2 "lost illegibility" by watzé
November 14, 2017, 06:51:30 am

Re: Star Pass Destroys the Pack by Vanilla VICE
November 13, 2017, 10:04:40 pm

Re: Rules 2017 and old 2.4.2.2 "lost illegibility" by Vanilla VICE
November 13, 2017, 10:01:54 pm

Re: Rules 2017 and old 2.4.2.2 "lost illegibility" by watzé
November 13, 2017, 07:46:26 pm

Re: Rules 2017 and old 2.4.2.2 "lost illegibility" by watzé
November 13, 2017, 01:02:04 pm

Re: Rules 2017 and old 2.4.2.2 "lost illegibility" by Divide by Zero
November 13, 2017, 07:18:19 am

Rules 2017 and old 2.4.2.2 "lost illegibility" by watzé
November 12, 2017, 08:39:57 pm

Re: Star Pass Destroys the Pack by General Hellativity
November 10, 2017, 05:31:10 pm

Author Topic: Uninvolved skaters and track cuts  (Read 540 times)

Offline QED

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • League Affiliation: North East Roller Derby (NERD)
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Uninvolved skaters and track cuts
« on: July 31, 2017, 03:33:28 am »
0
It's spelled out clearly in the rules that if a block sends and opponent OOB, the initiator of the block can't re-establish their position after they go OOB, OOP or down, but an uninvolved skater ahead of the action *can* (except for OOB as far as I'm aware)

What is the rationale behind this - it breaks my key belief about position, and I'm trying re-adjust. Specifically, what is the reasoning behind making the initiator *less* privileged in these scenarios?

I'm anticipating some reasoning to do with earning superior position, but what if the initiator *already had* superior position before the block?

Some relevant Rules and Casebook entries (there may be others):
_______________________________
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
If a Skater is put out of bounds due to an opponent’s block, the Skater must return in bounds behind that opponent, even if the Skater was in front of the opponent before being blocked. That opponent gives up this advantage if they go down, out of bounds, or out of play (or more than 20 ft (6.10 m) from the last defined Pack if there is no Pack) prior to the Skater re-entering the track.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Scenario C4.30

White Pivot and White Blocker are ahead of Red Pivot. Red Pivot is forced out of bounds by White Pivot. White Blocker skates clockwise behind both Skaters. White Blocker loses their balance, takes a knee, and returns upright. Red Pivot re-enters the track behind White Pivot and ahead of White Blocker.

Outcome: Red Pivot is penalized.

Rationale: Although White Blocker lost their superior position briefly while down, they returned upright before Red Pivot re-entered. White Blocker was not the initiator of the block that forced Red Pivot out of bounds, and thus is able to re-establish their superior position.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Scenario C4.35

White Pivot, White Blocker, and Red Jammer are 18 ft (5.48m) ahead of a stopped Pack. Red Jammer is blocked out of bounds by White Pivot. White Pivot and White Blocker roll forward, and both are given an Out of Play warning. White Pivot and White Blocker skate clockwise back to the Pack. Red Jammer re-enters the track ahead of both Skaters.

Outcome: Red Jammer is penalized.

Rationale: White Pivot, as initiator of the block, lost their superior position on Red Jammer by leaving the Engagement Zone. Although White Blocker lost their superior position briefly by going out of play, they regained it by returning to the Engagement Zone before Red Jammer re-entered. White Blocker was not the initiator of the block that forced Red Jammer out of bounds, and thus is able to re-establish their superior position.

Offline Garrotin Keillor

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: Uninvolved skaters and track cuts
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 04:51:31 am »
0
I've honestly wondered about this, too.  If, for example, red blocker is able to block out white jammer, and red blocker also goes out, but is able to get back on the track before the jammer, then why not?

My *guess* is that the initiator of the block already has multiple advantages over the recipient of the block, and this might be a check on crazy blocks, and an incentive for blockers (as in anyone initiating a block, not just the position) to go for forceful but *controlled* hits.

Even if both go out, the initiator will almost always be closer to the track than the recipient.  The transfer of momentum to the recipient will almost always allow the initiator to recover more quickly, as will the fact the initiator will likely be more expecting of going out of bounds than the recipient.  Their faster recovery is almost a given - and if position could be re-established, the harder, further the hit they give, the more probable it'd be.

With the non-initiators, with the exception of being closer to the track, they don't have these advantages or incentives, nor is there any check that needs to be placed on their actions regarding safety. 

That's my guess, anyway.

Offline SeerSin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 993
  • Stats Sheet: 55
  • League Affiliation: Minnesota Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Uninvolved skaters and track cuts
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2017, 12:53:31 pm »
+1
Really it's a holdover from an older ruleset. The primary reason the non-initiator can regain their position, including after going out of bounds, is that when the rules changed to create the No pass/no penalty thing only the initiator was included. Mostly because derby is played on the track and I believe skaters wanted to encourage skills over brawn. Quite a few years ago if initiators lost their position there was a race to see who could get back on the track/upright first. Blockers would fling themselves at the jammer and then race them back to the track in an attempt to draw a cutting penalty. WFTDA membership decided they didn't like that.

Offline llama of death

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • Referee
  • League Affiliation: Rollling Hills Derby Dames, WheatWhackers (JRDA)
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Uninvolved skaters and track cuts
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2017, 08:30:34 pm »
0
Really it's a holdover from an older ruleset.

So no written rule anywhere to backup this call then?
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Anton Deck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Stats Sheet: 3
  • League Affiliation: Dolly Rockit Rollers
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Uninvolved skaters and track cuts
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2017, 08:25:08 am »
0
Really it's a holdover from an older ruleset.

So no written rule anywhere to backup this call then?

Aside from the rule quoted?

I dont think anyones arguing this is the way its explicitly writen in the rules and casebook (theres also a QA which details this ), its just the rationale behind why blocking someone off track should give you superior position and why we treat inititors and non initiators differently in regard to re-establishing lost position.



 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 1873
Views: 2993
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 1673
Views: 3132
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 1732
Views: 3552
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2572
Views: 3699
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal