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Author Topic: star pass and cutting penalty  (Read 676 times)

Offline Bluebeard

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star pass and cutting penalty
« on: August 24, 2017, 09:51:17 pm »
+1
This came up Saturday:  Both jammers cleared the pack and were interacting outside the engagement zone on their way around for their next scoring trip.  Teal Jammer knocked Orange jammer out of bounds to the outside.  Teal jammer starts heading back towards the pack.  Orange jammer goes with her.  They both re-enter the engagement zone (orange still out of bounds).  teal jammer passes the star to her pivot.  Orange jammer re-enters the track in front of the former teal jammer, now blocker.

Does this fall under the cutting exception with the star pass?  I'm thinking no, because the orange jammer went back to the engagement zone with the teal jammer, there was no trip differential, thus no "teleportation" which is where that exception arises.

An inexperienced OPR who I do not think is familiar with that exception issued the cutting penalty.  When we discussed it after the jam, I, as HR, Upheld the call for the reason stated above.  What do others think?

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2017, 09:58:18 am »
0
It does not match C4.39 exactly, but I would still rule it the same.

If Orange Jammer had entered the Track in front of the EZ, we would have the exact situation of C4.39 and thus no cutting. While entering inside the EZ puts them in front of the pack, it also puts them a full trip back, making their position worse than what it was before entering the EZ. And turning a no-call into a penalty because the offending Skater worsened their position feels wrong.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 01:18:04 am »
0
This is not a cut.  Cuts are on people, not positions.

Since the orange jammer was down a full lap from where she went out of bounds, regardless of where she came back in, she would not be cutting any of the blockers - the only possible person she could renter ahead of was the teal jammer.

However, as soon as the teal jammer passed the star, she "snapped" to the same lap as the rest of the pack, and so the orange jammer couldn't cut her either. 

What about the NEW teal jammer?  Well, since that *person* didn't have superior position a second before the pass, she still didn't after.

The engagement zone is a red herring here - it doesn't really change anything from 4.39.
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Offline Bluebeard

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2017, 12:29:12 am »
0
This is not a cut.  Cuts are on people, not positions.

Since the orange jammer was down a full lap from where she went out of bounds, regardless of where she came back in, she would not be cutting any of the blockers - the only possible person she could renter ahead of was the teal jammer.

However, as soon as the teal jammer passed the star, she "snapped" to the same lap as the rest of the pack, and so the orange jammer couldn't cut her either. 

What about the NEW teal jammer?  Well, since that *person* didn't have superior position a second before the pass, she still didn't after.

The engagement zone is a red herring here - it doesn't really change anything from 4.39.
You described the exact situation in C4.39 which is not the situation I described.  Orange jammer was knocked out of bounds in turn 4.  Both jammers back up and meet the pack on the back straight near turn 3.  At the time of the star pass, there was no lap differential between the two jammers, the Orange jammer was about 10 feet in front of the Teal jammer.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 12:52:06 pm »
-1
Boy, these things are hard to describe with words, aren't they?

I apologize for not reading your original post carefully enough.  In that case, yes, your original scenario IS a cut.  Again applying the "cuts are on people, not positions," rule, the orange jammer DID cut the former teal jammer, because they gained position on the person, regardless of the helmet cover or the position of the engagement zone.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 03:30:11 pm by AdamSmasher »
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Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2017, 05:53:03 pm »
-1
Boy, these things are hard to describe with words, aren't they?

I apologize for not reading your original post carefully enough.  In that case, yes, your original scenario IS a cut.  Again applying the "cuts are on people, not positions," rule, the orange jammer DID cut the former teal jammer, because they gained position on the person, regardless of the helmet cover or the position of the engagement zone.

My gut reaction was to agree with AS's last post, but I deleted my post and want to play devils advocate. I think I've switched stances. I think it is legal.

The hit OOB happens on theoretical lap 0 in turn 4
The Star Pass happens on theoretical lap -1 in turn 3(they crossed the Front EZ threshold which we know for at least scoring purposes puts you back to the previous lap, the maximum you can go backwards)
So the question becomes does a hit OOB on lap 0 in which the jammer then goes back to the previous pass to lap -1, then teleport forward one lap after the star pass is complete. The momment that jammer becomes a blocker they no longer can be on lap-1 from the original hit, and will teleport forward to be on the same lap as the other blockers (lap0).

If you read that casebook case it tells you
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
The former White Jammer, by virtue of having become a Blocker, is considered to be far ahead of Red Jammer (just like all the other Blockers).

So YES both jammers are on the same lap when the starpass happens (both -1), but because the hit OOB was lap 0, I believe the person will teleport forward after the star pass is complete to lap 0. This part of the casebook I quoted is basically explaining what happens if the jammer turned blocker is -1 lap from the original hit.

Bluebeard says it isn't like the casebook entry, but really it is. Once you traverse the front EZ line, it is no different than the C4.39. In both plays, the jammer on the track traverses the front EZ line after the hit OOB which opens them up to teleport forward one lap if the starpass happens a lap behind the hit out, thus no cut. The only actual difference between the OP and the casebook entry is just that the distance to skate CW into the Front EZ (previous lap) is shorter.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 06:04:56 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Bluebeard

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 11:04:39 pm »
-1
Thanks, Vice.  That's the argument I needed.

We all agree that if one jammer knocks the other jammer out of bounds in the pack, then passes the star to their pivot; the OOB jammer still needs to re-enter behind the (now former jammer) player who hit them out of bounds.

The only relevance to where the hit out took place is that the both skaters are able to engage where the hit out took place (NOT an Out of Play Block).  Where the hit out took place has no other relevance; we care where the two skaters involved end up in relation to each other and the pack.

When a jammer exits the front of the engagement zone they start a new scoring trip.  if they then cross the front of the engagement zone in a clockwise direction, they return to the previous scoring trip.
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
3.2. Scoring Trips
Points are grouped by trips through the Pack. One trip through the Pack ends, and the next begins, when the Jammer exits the front of the Engagement Zone. Upon completion of a trip through the Pack, the Jammer’s score for that trip can no longer be altered by dropping back to re-pass any opponents the Jammer did not score upon on that trip.

If a Jammer enters the Engagement Zone from the front, they return to their previous trip until they exit the Engagement Zone from the front again. A Jammer cannot, however, fall behind by more than one trip. Whenever a Jammer exits the Engagement Zone from the front, they return to their latest trip. If a Jammer falls behind their initial trip through the Pack, passes on Blockers do not count toward scoring or lapping until they return to their initial trip through the Pack.
orange jammer exits the engagement zone:
  teal ; lap 0
  orange lap 1
  pack ; lap 1

teal jammer exits the engagement zone:
  teal ; lap 1
  orange ; lap 1
  pack ; lap 1

teal jammer hits orange jammer out of bounds:
  teal ;  lap 1
  orange ; lap 1
  pack ; lap 1

teal jammer backs up re-entering engagement zone:
  teal ; lap 0
  orange ; lap 1
  pack ; lap 1

orange jammer also backs up crossing the front edge of the engagement zone:
  teal ; lap 0
  orange ; lap 0
  pack ; lap 0
     This is where the magic happens - no one is on lap 1 now so the pack is also considered to be on lap 0

teal jammer passes the star to their pivot:
  teal jammer (new) ; lap 0
  teal jammer (former) ; lap 0
  orange jammer ; lap 0
  pack ; lap 0
    because there is no lap differential when the star pass happens, the teal jammer does not teleport forward a lap in order to join the pack as a blocker.

orange jammer re-enters the track in front of teal former jammer (now blocker);
   track cut penalty

If the orange jammer had remained in front of the engagement zone, C4.39 would have come into play exempting them from the track cut.

I now feel confident that it was a good call.  Unless someone from rules, or a high level certified chimes in saying otherwise, I will teach and enforce it this way going forward.  Thanks for all the discussion, folks!

We could go off in the weeds about what happens if the in bounds jammer passes the star before the out of bounds jammer crosses the front of the engagement zone.  But, since we are nit-picking loopholes and thus having to deal with some fairly arbitrary decisions anyway, I say to judge whether they are on the same lap when the jammer re-enters the track, rather than when the star pass happens.

edit: fixed spelling error
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 11:40:48 pm by Bluebeard »

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2017, 04:42:05 pm »
0
I still believe this to be legal.

If the rules DIDN'T allow a jammer to go down one lap to lap -1, then this would be a cut. The rules allow that OOB Jammer to be -1 lap.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
If a Jammer enters the Engagement Zone from the front, they return to their previous trip until they exit the Engagement Zone from the front again. A Jammer cannot, however, fall behind by more than one trip.
Quote

We could go off in the weeds about what happens if the in bounds jammer passes the star before the out of bounds jammer crosses the front of the engagement zone.

No you couldn't because that would be a Star Pass Violation ;)

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
C4.39: The former White Jammer, by virtue of having become a Blocker, is considered to be far ahead of Red Jammer (just like all the other Blockers).

For me this tells you when the teleportation happens. It happens by virtue of becoming a blocker. Since that is the momment the teleportation happens, by the time the re-entry happens, the OOB blocker is 90% of a lap behind the Jammer turned blocker. Any jammer turned blockers that are on lap-1 teleport at that momment the pass is complete. For this to be a cut, the re-entry would have to occur before the star pass.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 05:58:22 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2017, 07:49:27 pm »
+1
Let's consider two variations:

1. Both Jammers are still inside the front EZ, when Orange Jammer is hit out: In this case Orange Jammer is ahead of the Pack and (considered) behind Teal Jammer when hit out and ahead of the Pack including Teal Ex-Jammer on reentering. -> Cutting

2. Both Jammers are already inside the rear EZ, when Orange Jammer is hit out: In this case Ornage Jammer is behind the Pack when hit out. On reentering she is not considered to have cut anybody from the original Pack, so she must still be considered to be behind the Pack. As per C4.39 this means she is also considered to be behind Teal Ex-Jammer. -> No Call

This means the question if Orange Jammer is inside the EZ on reentering is a red herring. The actually important question is if she is in front or behind the Pack when she is hit out.

Glossary says
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
One thing (for example, a Skater, a line, the Pack) is “behind” another thing, in relation to the track, if it is nearer in the clockwise direction than the counterclockwise direction.

So: Did the Jammers make up half a lap on the Pack before Orange Jammer was hit out? If so: No call. If not: Cutting.

Offline Bluebeard

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 11:18:46 pm »
0
C4.39 and the clarification from which it arose were the result of a play that caused a situation that people felt was unfair and should be addressed.  If C4.39 were not in effect when that play happens, the out of bounds jammer would have to skate clear around the outside of the track to re-enter behind the person who knocked them OOB while the opposing jammer was skating free and scoring points.  The unfairness arises because the only person who can run a player back that far is the jammer; so in order to run someone back that far, the team is giving up the ability to score points themselves while making the other jammer run back.  By passing the star after running back to create a lap differential between the two jammers, the team was forcing the extreme run back while retaining the ability to score themselves.

They addressed this "unfairness" by stating that if jammer A knocked jammer B out of bounds and started skating clockwise.  if jammer B stays put and jammer A takes themselves down a lap (by crossing the front of the engagement zone in clockwise direction) thus creating a lap differential between the jammers, if jammer A then passes the star, they (jammer A, now blocker) "teleport" forward a lap to join the pack on the same lap in relation to jammer B.

C4.39 and the clarification from which it arose (which I cannot currently find on the WFTDA site) requires the OOB jammer not skate back with the in bounds jammer.  In my scenario: if Orange jammer had stayed put in turn 4, when Teal jammer passed the star to her pivot between turns 2 and 3, there would have been a lap differential between the jammers and the orange jammer could have re-entered without penalty.

The only argument I really see for my situation being not a penalty is if passing the star nullified any pending cuts that the player in question were "holding".  This is not what C4.39 says and I don't see how we can extend C4.39 that far.

The consensus of the conversations about illegal re-entry with the new rule-set and C4.41 both establish the front of the engagement zone as determining "behind" or "ahead" of the pack with priority over the new glossary definitions of "ahead" and "behind".

Quote

We could go off in the weeds about what happens if the in bounds jammer passes the star before the out of bounds jammer crosses the front of the engagement zone.

No you couldn't because that would be a Star Pass Violation ;)


How would that be a star pass violation?

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2017, 08:15:58 am »
0
The consensus of the conversations about illegal re-entry with the new rule-set and C4.41 both establish the front of the engagement zone as determining "behind" or "ahead" of the pack with priority over the new glossary definitions of "ahead" and "behind".

So if a Jammer is hit out 21ft in front of the Pack (i.e. behind by above definition) and reenters 19ft ahead of the Pack (i.e. ahead by above definition) they have cut the whole Pack?

(And it doesn't really matter for this discussion where the switch happens. With the glossary definition you could replace 21 and 19 ft with slightly more and slightly less than half a lap on front of the pack. The point is that by crossing this point clockwise a Jammer stays behind the Pack.)

Also: You say if Orange Jammer stays put it's a no call but if they skate clockwise it's a penalty. What advantage did they gain by skating clockwise that warrants considering this as sufficient impact?

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 04:56:40 pm »
+3
Let's use pictures!

orange jammer exits the engagement zone:

teal jammer exits the engagement zone:




Quote
teal jammer hits orange jammer out of bounds:



Quote
teal jammer backs up re-entering engagement zone:

orange jammer also backs up crossing the front edge of the engagement zone:



Quote
teal jammer passes the star to their pivot:



Quote
orange jammer re-enters the track in front of teal former jammer (now blocker);


 
What I see looking at these is that y'all are way overcomplicating this.  (As was I when I misread the first post)  The engagement zone is irrelevant.  Even the star pass is irrelevant.  Let's call the original blue jammer "Pat."  Orange jammer was hit out by Pat.  Orange jammer came in ahead of Pat.

Cut. Done.
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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 10:44:08 am »
-2
Let's call the original blue jammer "Pat."  Orange jammer was hit out by Pat.  Orange jammer came in ahead of Pat.

Cut. Done.

But if Orange Jammer had stayed in front of the EZ, C4.39 would apply and it is not a cut. So by putting themselves in a worse position (they may now be blocked and contained in a -1 trip), Orange Jammer created sufficient impact to warrant turning a no call into a Penalty? This can't be right.

Also this way of calling it would open up again the loophole that C4.39 is supposedly trying to close: New Teal Jammer can skate forward and attempt to score, while Pat is still recycling Orange Jammer on their -1 pass.

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 12:10:19 pm »
+1
Let's call the original blue jammer "Pat."  Orange jammer was hit out by Pat.  Orange jammer came in ahead of Pat.

Cut. Done.

But if Orange Jammer had stayed in front of the EZ, C4.39 would apply and it is not a cut. So by putting themselves in a worse position (they may now be blocked and contained in a -1 trip), Orange Jammer created sufficient impact to warrant turning a no call into a Penalty? This can't be right.

Also this way of calling it would open up again the loophole that C4.39 is supposedly trying to close: New Teal Jammer can skate forward and attempt to score, while Pat is still recycling Orange Jammer on their -1 pass.

That is not how C4.39 works.  The important concept in C4.39 is that the jammer skates a full lap backwards relative to the pack and then passes the star to suddenly join it.

There is no -1 lap here.  The jammer has skated forward 21 feet, and then back.

I guarantee 110% you will not find a single experienced referee who would look at those pictures and call anything but a cut.
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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 08:43:34 pm »
0
Quote
There is no -1 lap here.

I read the OP differently than your pictures.
Quote
How would that be a star pass violation?
It wouldn't be, I was reading things differently than intended I think.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 08:47:17 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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