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Author Topic: star pass and cutting penalty  (Read 1492 times)

Offline llama of death

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 09:49:01 pm »
+1
Let's use pictures!
 
--><--**edited for brevity**--><--

What I see looking at these is that y'all are way overcomplicating this.  (As was I when I misread the first post)  The engagement zone is irrelevant.  Even the star pass is irrelevant.  Let's call the original blue jammer "Pat."  Orange jammer was hit out by Pat.  Orange jammer came in ahead of Pat.

Cut. Done.

This was exactly what I was thinking, down to the use of pictures. Thank you for getting those images lain out.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 09:52:28 pm by llama of death »
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2017, 12:00:23 pm »
0
That is not how C4.39 works.  The important concept in C4.39 is that the jammer skates a full lap backwards relative to the pack and then passes the star to suddenly join it.

There is no -1 lap here.  The jammer has skated forward 21 feet, and then back.

So if the Jammer skates back a full lap it's no cutting. If they skate back 21 feet it is a cutting. Got it. But since Jammers can hit each other oob anywhere on the track, there has to be a point on the lap where it switches from cutting to no call. Where is this point? (I guess, most plausible would be half a lap from the pack, in line with the glossary definition of ahead/behind, which would bring us back to reply #8.)

Offline llama of death

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2017, 04:08:08 pm »
0
That is not how C4.39 works.  The important concept in C4.39 is that the jammer skates a full lap backwards relative to the pack and then passes the star to suddenly join it.

There is no -1 lap here.  The jammer has skated forward 21 feet, and then back.

So if the Jammer skates back a full lap it's no cutting. If they skate back 21 feet it is a cutting. Got it. But since Jammers can hit each other oob anywhere on the track, there has to be a point on the lap where it switches from cutting to no call. Where is this point? (I guess, most plausible would be half a lap from the pack, in line with the glossary definition of ahead/behind, which would bring us back to reply #8.)

I would like to help you answer that but I do not fully understand what you are trying to ask. It sounds like you are still thinking about the jammer cutting jammer scenario as the star cover is the one the OoB jammer is cutting, if so I refer you back to AdamSmashers diagrams and my own example scenario below.

Skating back 21ft or even 1000ft is not the point.

The point being made here is Cutting penalties happen when on skater cuts another skater not relative to their position as jammer or pivot or anything.

Sue blocks out John, Sue Passes star to Betty. Even though Sue is no longer the jammer she still has earned superior position on John. When John cuts Sue, it no longer matters if she passed the star because the cut is on the sue not the position she was playing.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2017, 04:32:09 pm »
0
Quote
When John cuts Sue, it no longer matters if she passed the star because the cut is on the sue not the position she was playing.

Not if you believe Sue teleports forward a lap after the star pass, then it isn't a cut. Speedy is correct in that your saying people 100ft behind the pack don't teleport forward, and that those in the the pack do (even though both of these situations would be on the same lap). This is just too inconsistent for me to want to rely on the "half way" idea. I think teleportation always happens if starpass happens while being -1 lap from the original knockout OOB.

The rules do not allow a blocker to be on a different lap than the pack, so we know after the star pass they would have to teleport forward. They lose their relative position after they teleport forward.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
C4.39: The former White Jammer, by virtue of having become a Blocker, is considered to be far ahead of Red Jammer (just like all the other Blockers).

This right here tells you they instantly move forward to become on the same lap as the pack. If that is true, than it isn't a Relative Position gain, and cannot be a cut.

You lose superior position if you teleport forward a lap. You teleport forward a lap because you can't be -1 lap from the pack.

Why do we have to say that people teleport forward one lap? Because we allow Jammers to go -1 lap, and do NOT allow blockers to go down -1 lap. If your a jammer at -1 and you starpass, you teleport forward because the rules don't allow you to be -1 as a blocker.

The whole point of C4.39 is to tell you if you are -1, you lose your Superior Position on folks you knocked out on lap 0 if you are a jammer turned blocker. That is exactly what happens in this scenario.


For this to be a cut, the re-entry would have to occur before the teleporation(Star Pass). I know I said I was picturing something different before, but I'm still convinced of the same result.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 05:26:59 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2017, 10:55:33 am »
0
So if the Jammer skates back a full lap it's no cutting. If they skate back 21 feet it is a cutting. Got it. But since Jammers can hit each other oob anywhere on the track, there has to be a point on the lap where it switches from cutting to no call. Where is this point? (I guess, most plausible would be half a lap from the pack, in line with the glossary definition of ahead/behind, which would bring us back to reply #8.)

I would like to help you answer that but I do not fully understand what you are trying to ask. It sounds like you are still thinking about the jammer cutting jammer scenario as the star cover is the one the OoB jammer is cutting, if so I refer you back to AdamSmashers diagrams and my own example scenario below.

[...]

Sue blocks out John, Sue Passes star to Betty. Even though Sue is no longer the jammer she still has earned superior position on John. When John cuts Sue, it no longer matters if she passed the star because the cut is on the sue not the position she was playing.

My question stems from the fact that in C4.39 Sue also does not physically get ahead of John. But it's not a cut there. And the only difference to Smasher's diagrams I can see is how far Sue (and John) have skated clockwise before the Star Pass.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2017, 08:56:02 pm »
0
https://wftda.com/2017-rules-changes-to-game-structure/
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
A Jammer cedes their superior position when they Pass the Star.

I finally found this. If this doesn't make you think this isn't a cut, nothing will. Superior position evaporates after the star pass is complete. The Jammer turned blocker loses superior position. That is why the re-entry would have to occur before the star pass for this to be a cut.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 08:59:30 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Triop

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2017, 11:07:36 pm »
0
https://wftda.com/2017-rules-changes-to-game-structure/
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
A Jammer cedes their superior position when they Pass the Star.

I finally found this. If this doesn't make you think this isn't a cut, nothing will. Superior position evaporates after the star pass is complete. The Jammer turned blocker loses superior position. That is why the re-entry would have to occur before the star pass for this to be a cut.

Is that actually described in the rules anywhere? I never have good luck finding anything in the rules anymore.

Offline Bluebeard

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2017, 01:25:01 am »
0
@Smasher Thank you for the pictures, They're very helpful.

https://wftda.com/2017-rules-changes-to-game-structure/
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
A Jammer cedes their superior position when they Pass the Star.

I finally found this. If this doesn't make you think this isn't a cut, nothing will. Superior position evaporates after the star pass is complete. The Jammer turned blocker loses superior position. That is why the re-entry would have to occur before the star pass for this to be a cut.

That is from the announcement about changes in the rules and giving a plain language synopsis thereof.  If it were meant to be enforced this way in all circumstances, then the third paragraph of 4.2.2 would include the language ", or pass the star".  It does not.
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
4.2.2. Gaining Position
It is illegal for a Skater to use the out-of-bounds area to gain position on someone who is upright and in bounds. Skaters who are out of bounds must return in bounds behind any upright and in bounds Skaters who they were behind when they left the track. If there is a Pack, Skaters who are out of bounds may return in bounds in front of any out of play Skaters. If there is no Pack, Skaters who are out of bounds may return in bounds in front of any Skaters more than 20 ft (6.10 m) from the last defined Pack.

Skaters who intentionally, but legally, leave the track (examples include, to report to the Penalty Box or to fix equipment) must return to the track behind all in play Blockers. If there is no Pack, they must return to the track behind all Blockers within 20 ft (6.10 m) of the last defined Pack.

If a Skater is put out of bounds due to an opponent’s block, the Skater must return in bounds behind that opponent, even if the Skater was in front of the opponent before being blocked. That opponent gives up this advantage if they go down, out of bounds, or out of play (or more than 20 ft (6.10 m) from the last defined Pack if there is no Pack) prior to the Skater re-entering the track.

I have submitted a ticket to timeout suggesting a rule change to say that a skater relinquishes superior position by passing the star with no qualifications.  Which would make the rules as you describe.


@Speedy I understand and can sympathize with your confusion.  the front edge of the engagement zone is where a jammer transitions between trips through the pack.
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
3.2. Scoring Trips
Points are grouped by trips through the Pack. One trip through the Pack ends, and the next begins, when the Jammer exits the front of the Engagement Zone. Upon completion of a trip through the Pack, the Jammer’s score for that trip can no longer be altered by dropping back to re-pass any opponents the Jammer did not score upon on that trip.

If a Jammer enters the Engagement Zone from the front, they return to their previous trip until they exit the Engagement Zone from the front again. A Jammer cannot, however, fall behind by more than one trip. Whenever a Jammer exits the Engagement Zone from the front, they return to their latest trip. If a Jammer falls behind their initial trip through the Pack, passes on Blockers do not count toward scoring or lapping until they return to their initial trip through the Pack.

When a Jam ends, whatever trip the Jammers are on is considered to have been “completed” by the Jam ending.

If the in bounds (teal) jammer returns to a prior trip and the out of bounds (orange) jammer remains on their next scoring trip, when the teal jammer passes her star to become a blocker she has to "teleport" forward a lap to join the pack on the same trip as the orange jammer.

If the orange jammer also returns to their prior trip, then there is no teleport necessary because everyone is on the same trip.

Offline Speedy Convalesce

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2017, 03:55:27 pm »
0
If the in bounds (teal) jammer returns to a prior trip and the out of bounds (orange) jammer remains on their next scoring trip, when the teal jammer passes her star to become a blocker she has to "teleport" forward a lap to join the pack on the same trip as the orange jammer.

If the orange jammer also returns to their prior trip, then there is no teleport necessary because everyone is on the same trip.

This is (as far as I understand both of you) not what Smasher sees as the difference between the scenario at hand and C4.39. As Smasher stated in replies #11 and #13, for him the important difference is how far the Jammers skated clockwise. For you it is where the oob Jammer reentered in relation to the front of the EZ. While you both get to the same ruling for the scenario at hand, you'd rule a slight variation differently:

Orange Jammer is hit out 21ft in front of the Pack and stays there. Teal Jammer skates clockwise and passes the Star. Orange Jammer reenters in front of the EZ.

If I understand both of you correctly, you would rule this as a no call, while Smasher would still see a cut. (And comparing this with the original scenario, I am much more comfortable with Smasher's interpretation, as I don't like the idea that worsening your own position (by skating clockwise oob) should turn a no call into a penalty against you.)

And I agree that changing the rules so that the Jammer loses any superior position when passing the Star is probaly the cleanest solution. Easy to understand and apply for everybody.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2017, 11:37:05 pm »
0
Quote
Is that actually described in the rules anywhere? I never have good luck finding anything in the rules anymore.

C4.39 is the rule added to explain this change. It explains when the teleportation happens.
Quote
If it were meant to be enforced this way in all circumstances, then the third paragraph of 4.2.2 would include the language ", or pass the star".  It does not.
No, If you apply teleportation, then 4.2.2 doesn't need to be changed. Once  the star pass completes, the jammer turned blocker:
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
is considered to be far ahead

Is considered to be far ahead is the rulesy way of saying teleport forward. If they teleport forward, then you don't need to change 4.2.2 because they just are no longer ahead of them, even if you consider them the initiator still.


Lets review why this rule change is in place:

This is the video of the first instance of this under the old ruleset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7b3xTwpPXk

What happens in this video?
On track Jammer is lap-1
OOB Jammer is lap0
StarPass Happens on lap-1
OOB Jammer Re-Enters in front of the On Track Jammer


THIS IS THE SAME AS  THE OP SCENARIO The OP scenario is the EXACT play that caused this rule change with no deviations. The ONLY difference is the jammers are closer to one another but the lap counts and re-entry timing are the same.

So what happens in the video? Star Pass happens and the JR's didn't know if they should call a cut.

Rules Commitee has WFTDA membership vote on this change. Saying that once you star pass you lose superior position as if the the jammer turned blocker is now a lap forward instantly.

C4.39 is added the ruleset to explain that you move far forward after the pass to explain in rules terms (i mean did we really expect them to say teleport?) that you are now +1 lap forward and instantly on the same lap as the pack.

4.2.2 would only need to be rewritten if you didn't have C4.39.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 01:58:06 am by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Bluebeard

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Re: star pass and cutting penalty
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2017, 11:07:27 pm »
0
1) Thanks for digging up that video.  I did not realize that was during a men's game.

2)  It is not the same scenario as my OP.  In that clip (and C4.39) the OOB jammer stayed put while the in bounds jammer skated back a lap, as you note when you say:
Quote
What happens in this video?
On track Jammer is lap-1
OOB Jammer is lap0
StarPass Happens on lap-1
OOB Jammer Re-Enters in front of the On Track Jammer
emphasis mine.  In my scenario the OOB jammer also skated back to the pack (putting her also at lap -1 in your parlance).
3)
Quote
Quote
If it were meant to be enforced this way in all circumstances, then the third paragraph of 4.2.2 would include the language ", or pass the star".  It does not.
No, If you apply teleportation, then 4.2.2 doesn't need to be changed. Once  the star pass completes, the jammer turned blocker:
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
is considered to be far ahead

Is considered to be far ahead is the rulesy way of saying teleport forward. If they teleport forward, then you don't need to change 4.2.2 because they just are no longer ahead of them, even if you consider them the initiator still.
This seems like a good time to apply Occam's razor:
<hypothetiecal>We want this new ruleset we are writing to have the jammer always relinquish superior position if they pass the star.  Do we;
A) add a handful of words to 4.2.2 to unequivocally state that the jammer relinquishes superior position if they pass the star, or
B) not mention any interaction between star passes and potential cuts anywhere in the entire ruleset except; add the entire C4.39 which contains multiple qualifications and leaves things open for confusion.</hypothetical>

If anyone is interested I dug out the video and pulled a clip of the play.  I included the entire jam for context.https://youtu.be/xUAi31mGCWg

It is kind of tough to see clear across the room.  So, here is what happens:
teal (blue) 52 gets lead.
teal 52 completes first scoring trip.
teal 52 completes her second scoring trip at same time orange 801 completes her initial trip.
jammers interact around the track.
teal 52 knocks orange 801 OOB in turn 4 while pack is in turns 1-2.
teal 52 skates through turn 3 to meet the pack in back straight; so does orange 801.
teal 52 passes star to teal 678.
teal 678 takes off.
orange 801 enters the track in front of teal 52.
OPR calls cutting penalty; no one hears.
orange 801 skates around the track.
OPR issues the penalty again; this time loud enough to be heard.

 

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