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Re: False Start = No pack? by llama of death
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Author Topic: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover  (Read 566 times)

Offline Axis of Stevil

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"Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« on: September 25, 2017, 09:50:07 am »
0
A friend posited me an interesting question.  Thought I'd pass it along to y'all for discussion.

White Jammer is legally blocked out of bounds by Black Blocker.  During the action  White Jammer's helmet cover pops off.  The cover lands in the center of the track.  Black Blocker skates clockwise to potentially draw a cut.  White Jammer drops to her knees, crawls onto the track, and retrieves the cover.  She then crawls off the track to the outside, stands, and cycles back to properly re-enter behind Black Blocker.

Would you penalize this action?  Why or why not?

PS, I'm aware my title is a bit of a misnomer.  I wasn't sure how to summarize the topic in a handful of words.
6.1.3.5.1.2.3 - The referee who quotes a rule with the most digits is declared the winner.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 02:06:25 pm »
+1
Sounds legal to me.

Looking at the bigger picture, that is a time consuming way to recover the star.
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 03:05:05 am »
0
I stand with VICE on this one.

Sounds legal to me.

Looking at the bigger picture, that is a time consuming way to recover the star.
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Offline llama of death

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 09:26:49 pm »
+2
"White Jammer is legally blocked out of bounds by Black Blocker. "

OK

During the action  White Jammer's helmet cover pops off.  The cover lands in the center of the track. 

OK

"Black Blocker skates clockwise to potentially draw a cut. "

"White Jammer drops to her knees, crawls onto the track, and retrieves the cover.  "

So... she entered the track while down to avoid the cutting call and the potential for the opponents to block her?

"She then crawls off the track to the outside, stands, and cycles back to properly re-enter behind Black Blocker."
[/quote]

*First, I am assuming she in entering within in-play and near the pack skaters. if this was in isolation, only affecting the two skaters mentioned then sure i guess allow it but it bending the rules to do so.*


I would tend not towards cutting but toward "Unsporting conduct" for assuming an unblock-able position while retrieving her cover.

In my mind the 'Derby' way of handling this should have been to recycle then retrieve her cover. The rules do not permit her to Cut nor to enter the track in such a way as to be unblockable. Sounds like a penalty to me.

I don't particularly like my own reasoning, but it does feel like the rules want players to have a chance to maintain the advantage they gained and promote safety. I feel this defies both, it is unfair and unsafe to adopt a downed position to avoid contact. It is also unsafe as she is putting herself into a position where she may trip others.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Bluebeard

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2017, 12:35:33 am »
0
To me, that sounds very similar to this skating out of bounds penalty from the 2015 rules.
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
5.12.17 Crossing the track while down, from the outfield to the infield.

Although Llama's "Unsporting conduct" makes a lot of sense, also.

Offline Triop

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2017, 04:15:01 pm »
0
*First, I am assuming she in entering within in-play and near the pack skaters. if this was in isolation, only affecting the two skaters mentioned then sure i guess allow it but it bending the rules to do so.*


I would tend not towards cutting but toward "Unsporting conduct" for assuming an unblock-able position while retrieving her cover.

In my mind the 'Derby' way of handling this should have been to recycle then retrieve her cover. The rules do not permit her to Cut nor to enter the track in such a way as to be unblockable. Sounds like a penalty to me.

I don't particularly like my own reasoning, but it does feel like the rules want players to have a chance to maintain the advantage they gained and promote safety. I feel this defies both, it is unfair and unsafe to adopt a downed position to avoid contact. It is also unsafe as she is putting herself into a position where she may trip others.

We had a discussion about a similar scenario at practice where a jammer would intentionally take a knee in order to retrieve a fallen cover that was on the track but being blocked by opposing skaters, the difference being the jammer is already on the track rather than coming from out of bounds.

We came to the conclusion that because it's not really mentioned in the rules anywhere and that the jammer is allowed to break other rules (IE, skating out of bounds) to retrieve the cover that no penalty would be issued here. Do you think the unsporting conduct applies here as well?

Offline llama of death

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 05:50:10 pm »
0
Do you think the unsporting conduct applies here as well?

I do; though I am just one ref, and it is just my opinion.

I tend to belive that if the rules don't say explicitly it neither allows nor prohibits explicitly that action. In which case we must use our best judgment on the intent of the rules.

The rules are very much about fair play now days.

I don't think this example of crawling onto the track it safe nor fair in this context.

I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2017, 02:01:29 pm »
+1
Quote
I would tend not towards cutting but toward "Unsporting conduct" for assuming an unblock-able position while retrieving her cover.

I don't because the pivot and jammer are allowed to skate OOB to recover the star OOB. That is unblockable, but we exempt the SOOB penalty, and I would also not call that maintaining an unblockable position. Recovering the star is what pivots and jammers are supposed to do. Play on.

Quote
We came to the conclusion that because it's not really mentioned in the rules anywhere and that the jammer is allowed to break other rules (IE, skating out of bounds) to retrieve the cover that no penalty would be issued here.

This is exactly why I believe this to be legal. The rules go out of the way to exempt star recover-ers from normally illegal things to keep the game going. They aren't trying to break the game, they just want to recover the star to keep playing the game.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 02:06:07 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline Triop

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2017, 09:14:41 pm »
+3
Quote
I would tend not towards cutting but toward "Unsporting conduct" for assuming an unblock-able position while retrieving her cover.

I don't because the pivot and jammer are allowed to skate OOB to recover the star OOB. That is unblockable, but we exempt the SOOB penalty, and I would also not call that maintaining an unblockable position. Recovering the star is what pivots and jammers are supposed to do. Play on.

Quote
We came to the conclusion that because it's not really mentioned in the rules anywhere and that the jammer is allowed to break other rules (IE, skating out of bounds) to retrieve the cover that no penalty would be issued here.

This is exactly why I believe this to be legal. The rules go out of the way to exempt star recover-ers from normally illegal things to keep the game going. They aren't trying to break the game, they just want to recover the star to keep playing the game.

On the other hand, the rules exempt retrieval of the OOB star only because there is no other option of retrieval. If the star is on the track there is no need to crawl or take a knee to recover the star and doing so gains a massive advantage in that you can recover the star and not be blocked.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 03:35:20 pm »
+1
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
If a Skater has reason to believe that they are legally positioned (even though they are not), or has reason to believe that they cannot legally return to a legal position, they must be warned before being assessed a penalty for failing to return to a legal position.

Personal Opinion: If this was a massive advantage, we woudn't be giving warnings first. I would like to hope you still would give a warning in this case.
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Offline Triop

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2017, 05:38:13 pm »
0
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
If a Skater has reason to believe that they are legally positioned (even though they are not), or has reason to believe that they cannot legally return to a legal position, they must be warned before being assessed a penalty for failing to return to a legal position.

Personal Opinion: If this was a massive advantage, we woudn't be giving warnings first. I would like to hope you still would give a warning in this case.

What reason would the skater have? They could stand to return to a legal position, and they can't think that down is a legal position. I'm not sure that even applies here at all.

If they were out of bounds as in the OP they could wait for the pack to move forward or skate clockwise if they really wanted, but crawling on to the track doesn't seem very derby like and doesn't allow the other team an option of blocking, which is a pretty big advantage.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:43:20 pm by Triop »

Offline Triop

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2017, 06:25:51 pm »
0
It isn't if you look at being coverless as a disadvantage.

If you came to me in the captains meeting and told me you wanted your team to be able to spend the first 15seconds of every jam crawling on the floor to gain this massive advantage, I would be happy because the game would end in  400-0 score and while you were crawling gaining this advantage, my team would be getting lead and scoring points. I’m just not on board with this huge time sink of what i see as gaining  nothing as an advantage.

I hate to use such a dramatic example but I couldn’t think of another way to describe it.

A generally self created disadvantage, which should be allowed to be capitalized on by the opposing team, which is then taken away by illegally adopting a state where you are unable to be blocked. The only reason you are allowed to go OOB to retrieve a cover which is also OOB is because there is no other way to get it back.

It can take many seconds to retrieve a cover while being actively blocked, which could result in lead or points scored by the opposing team and to take that away I think it pretty massive, especially if you do it illegally. It would take WAY longer to retrieve it by recycling than by crawling or intentionally going down. 

Like I said way above, currently our crew is allowing this to slide because of similar reasoning to what you are defending. I just don't think that's derby at all.

Edit: Where'd the post go? it disappeared.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2017, 06:29:45 pm »
0
I deleted that post as I wasn’t adding anything to the convo. I won’t be throwing any maintaining unblockable penalties without a warning.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 06:36:24 pm by Vanilla VICE »
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Offline llama of death

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Re: "Cutting" by crawling onto the track to retrieve a cover
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2017, 10:21:59 pm »
0
I deleted that post as I wasn’t adding anything to the convo. I won’t be throwing any maintaining unblockable penalties without a warning.

Agreed, this is not a common scenario, and the skaters don't often have the presence of mind to realize this may not be a legal position to put themselves in; a warning  should defiantly be issued here before penalizing.

Just spit-balling, would this be clear enough: "color, # you may not retrieve the cover while pending a cut"

A mouthful to be sure.

Maybe instead "color, #, warning, illegal recovery"
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

 

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