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Author Topic: False Start = No pack?  (Read 508 times)

Offline llama of death

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False Start = No pack?
« on: October 17, 2017, 06:29:54 pm »
0
Scenario: Black Pivot is the only skater not in the box for their team at the start of the jam. White team starts within 10 feet of Black Pivot. Before the whistle starts Black pivots wheel clips the jammer line (false start). Is there a pack?

In the old rules (5.15.6 for example) made it clear that a false starting skater was not part of a definable pack until they yielded. I cannot for the life of me find any such reference in the rules now.

It may not be a thing anymore but as far as I know this rule didn't change, but I may be blind to it a-la cognitive word skipping, or due to my expectations of the phrasing.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: False Start = No pack?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 03:39:07 pm »
+1
It's in Section 2.2 now.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Any Skaters who are partially illegally positioned (but are still on the track; for example, a Jammer who is touching past the Jammer Line) are required to yield their position to all other Skaters in the immediate vicinity, and are not considered to have joined the Jam until they have done so.

If I had to guess, I'd say there is no pack until the yield resolves.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 03:53:15 pm by Vanilla VICE »
Muscogee Roller Girls: Columbus, GA
FlatTrackStats Mod

Offline llama of death

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Re: False Start = No pack?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 11:07:11 pm »
0
It's in Section 2.2 now.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Any Skaters who are partially illegally positioned (but are still on the track; for example, a Jammer who is touching past the Jammer Line) are required to yield their position to all other Skaters in the immediate vicinity, and are not considered to have joined the Jam until they have done so.

If I had to guess, I'd say there is no pack until the yield resolves.

Thank you, that looks like the new phrasing then.

I seem to struggle to find rules more in this rules set, mostly I feel that is my problem for having tried so hard to outright memorize the old rule-set and its formatting, makes finding the new phrasings hard for me.

Again, thank you.
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Bluebeard

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Re: False Start = No pack?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2017, 10:55:25 pm »
0
This came up in a game a couple weeks ago.  The only differences being that it was white and the pivot lined up intentionally straddling the pivot line.  The level 4 front IPR warned her about positioning before the jam started, then issued "False Start" warning when the jam started.  She had picked up her wheels, I as middle OPR could not see her toe stop.  Upon hearing the warning she took off for the penalty box causing that whole fun scene.  We had "no pack"  until she returned to the track which was at the same time that two of her teammates were released from the box and returned to the track.

My thoughts:  I feel like it would have been appropriate in my scenario to take an OTO and issue a delay of game to the white captain per 5.15.6 in the 2015 rules
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
5.15.6 Failure to field any Blockers between the Pivot and Jammer Lines, preventing a pack
from forming between the Pivot and Jammer Lines at the first legal opportunity.
Penalty will be assessed to the Captain. If both teams fail to field any Blockers in this
way, one penalty will be issued to each Captain.
even though that is not in line with C2.4 in the casebook.
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Scenario C2.4
All White Blockers (including White Pivot) line up legally between Jams at the Pivot Line, but not touching the line. Red Pivot lines up behind them. Immediately before the Jam starts, Red Pivot reaches forward with their leg and places their skate on the Pivot Line.

Outcome: The White Non-Pivot Blockers should all be issued False Start warnings, and must yield their positions to all nearby Skaters; any who do not yield should receive a penalty.

Rationale: Red Pivot established their position in contact with the Pivot Line before the beginning of the Jam, so Non-Pivot Blockers must begin the Jam behind the hips of any Pivots in contact with the Pivot Line. All White Blockers began the Jam in front of Red Pivot, so all but the White Pivot are required to yield.
I guess it comes down to whether the "partially out of position" false start (one toe stop in front of pivot line)  is enough different from the "completely behind pivot line, but in front of pivot" false start to treat it differently and use the "no blockers between the pivot and jammer lines" guideline from the prior ruleset.  Although in C2.4 the white pivot did not false start so she was able to form a pack.

Offline AdamSmasher

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Re: False Start = No pack?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 12:06:46 pm »
0
I thought I had a clear answer to this, but the more I think about it, the more I realize I don't.  The case of the lone remaining pivot at the front in a false starting position in theory can be resolved by legal means - yield, then pack. 

However, that isn't necessarily "immediate."  Very likely not immediate at the front, in fact. So you could follow your suggestion, not start the jam, and issue a delay of game.  You could also let the jam proceed and just keep the no pack up until the blocker has yielded - they're only having impact on their own team, after all.

In my personal opinion, there is no strong consensus on this issue on the moment that I am aware of.

The way to dodge the issue entirely, of course, is for skaters to *notice* when we warn them about false starts. :)
I'm better at remembering "Smasher" is me than "Adam."
Rules Colored Glasses - Useful Officiating Stuff

Offline llama of death

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Re: False Start = No pack?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2017, 10:15:28 pm »
+1
The way to dodge the issue entirely, of course, is for skaters to *notice* when we warn them about false starts. :)

Assuming they aren't doing so intentionally as in BlueBeards example?
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

Offline Bluebeard

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Re: False Start = No pack?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 09:44:02 pm »
0
<snip>
However, that isn't necessarily "immediate."  Very likely not immediate at the front, in fact. So you could follow your suggestion, not start the jam, and issue a delay of game.  You could also let the jam proceed and just keep the no pack up until the blocker has yielded - they're only having impact on their own team, after all.
<snip>
Not really, there were four black blockers on the track unable to engage the white jammer during that extended no pack. (the penalty box and benches were off turns 3 & 4).

The more I think about it, the less I think C2.4 applies.  In C2.4 the white pivot did not false start so C2.4 has a pack with the white pivot and red pivot and any other red blockers in proximity.

If the skaters are pushing for these situations to be resolved with as little input (penalties, TOs) from officials as possible (I don't have access to those conversations),  I can see handling Llama's original scenario as a short no pack while the skater yields - touching the jammer line it will be a quick yield and not that much impact to the game.  The pivot line false start cannot resolve that quickly and the extended no pack will have impact to the game.

Time for another timeout ticket, I guess.

Offline llama of death

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Re: False Start = No pack?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 06:08:19 pm »
0
Is there another angle to this we haven't yet looked at?

In my OP the skater who false started clearly had no intention to have false started and Immediately yielded. I can easily see calling this as normal gameplay and needs no penalty as Smasher suggests.

In BlueBeards version however, the false starting Pivot was warned pre-jam of her illegal status. She has remained there in order to cause a no pack. This is the strongest case for intentionally prolonging the formation of a pack at the beginning of a jam, it would be simple and (IMO) fair to call this in the same manner as other scenarios where pack formation is intentionally delayed, in this case by more than half the skaters for one team on a track.

IF it where called as illegally prolonging the formation of a pack would this then be a "stalling" penalty with no jam stoppage as described by the old rules under 5.13.25 (I can't seem to find ANY reference
 to this penalty in the new rules at the moment.)
I play devils advocate a lot, it is always because I desire a complete understanding of the rule/scenario. I do make changes to my reffing often as a direct result of discussions resulting in a consensus. Particularly if it is contrary to my previous understanding.

 

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