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Author Topic: Mistakes and other problems  (Read 137959 times)

Offline Major Wood

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Mistakes and other problems
« on: December 19, 2008, 06:52:23 pm »
Many referees don't like to admit that they make mistakes. Every single one of us makes mistakes. Probably more than one in every bout we ref. We strive to make every call properly, to be fair and consistant. When it doesn't work out that way, what are we supposed to do?

We learn from it!

I'd like to have everyone, after every bout they ref, point out what they messed up, or what they weren't sure how to handle. Let everyone else learn from your experience, so they are prepared to handle it should that situation arise.

So what was your most recent mistake or incident?
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008, 08:29:02 pm »
Because I hate cross-posting, or copy-pasting, or doing any sort of work, I'm'a just post this link.

http://revriot.blogspot.com

and now you can catch up on almost every mistake I know I've made during a bout in over a year! And more to come.

yuck to self-promotion!
Matthew Mantsch - Reverend Riot
WFTDA Rules Theory Committee
Gotham Girls Roller Derby - NYC

Offline Pallbearer

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2008, 12:32:48 am »
I have no idea how I missed that you have a blog, but after a quick skim read there is some good stuff there.

The latest gaff that I really hated with during a game between Atlanta's B team and Mississippi Rollergirls. I was Head Ref, and on being told number 8 had four minors, I simply sent off the first number 8 I saw. Now as background the penalty keepers had never worked a bout, and I was the only Ref with more than 4 bouts total. I blame myself entirely, but I really really should have known there'd be two numbers 8's out there. This would ordinarily not be  problem because experienced penalty staff would have picked it up, and I may not have been so distracted trying to teach new Refs mid game.

No excuses though, I got it wrong and had to make up for it. Because the # 8 that should have gone off was on the other team, I blew the jam dead immediately and reversed the score, and added time to the clock. I reversed the score because the point were awarded in error (jammer should have been in the box) and luckily no other penalties were current for that jam. This was not a WFTDA game and no real harm was done, but I did feel really stupid.

Most important to learn was that simple things will still bite your arse just as hard as the tricky stuff.

Because I hate cross-posting, or copy-pasting, or doing any sort of work, I'm'a just post this link.

http://revriot.blogspot.com

and now you can catch up on almost every mistake I know I've made during a bout in over a year! And more to come.

yuck to self-promotion!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 12:34:53 am by Pallbearer »

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2008, 12:56:07 am »
The most recent bout I reffed was a WFTDA sanctioned bout between Memphis and Huntsville. The situation was unusual (for me) because the penalty box was in the infield. This made it peculiar for me, as a jam ref, to signal a major.
I would do the typical single whistle blast, signal the penalty (I'm still learning to implement hand signals to show what infraction occurred, so I surely didn't do this a few times), signal the major by pointing at the skater/across the track. This is where the problem occurred. I was pointing at the skaters and across the track for them to exit the track to serve their major and was confusing to the skaters because the penalty box was behind me. The hand signal that would have visibly made more sense in this situation would have been the Ejection/Expulsion hand signal, at least I would have been pointing at the penalty box then.
Almost every skater I sent off to the box knew exactly what I was doing. There was one skater though, who regularly did not seem to understand. She knew that I was calling a penalty on her, but did not seem to realize that it was a major and she needed to go to the box. It regularly took 40+ feet for me to convey that she was to exit the track and report to the penalty box.

What I learned from this is that I need to adapt myself to unusual track situations. In this case, I needed to be more vocal, and use phrases that I would not typically use. I will try to be more ready with "Major!", "Penalty box!" and "Off the track!"
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2008, 01:49:42 am »
Oh, boy, I loves me some self-flagellation.

Every time I think I've dealt with the last big rulefart I had left, and was all good, another one comes along and gets me:

12/7 - Men's Derby Conference II, Jam reffing: jammer accidentally loses cover out of bounds and turns around and skates back to get it. I do not give him a major because he was OOB, and did not think recovery was automatically considered a star pass. But rules nest star recovery inside the star pass rules, and say nothing about being in play/ in bounds if skater skates clockwise to recover, so, major.

10/25 Charm City Championship, Jam reffing: jammerless jam, with the team whose jammer had been sitting already having their second blocker enter the box right as jammerless jam is called. Captain of that team argues that the blocker who just sat down should go back out, not the jammer who had already been sitting, and in the heat of the moment this made sense to me  (and head ref agrees) as she was the last one in. Durr. Jammer *always* goes back out if a jammerless jam results in three blockers in the box, even if she's already served time.

10/11 - Eastern Regionals, Boston-Madison, Jam reffing: split pack, jammer goes out of bounds and re-enters in front of foremost opposing blocker. Giver her a minor cutting track as I called it under 3.0 rules (foremost opposing in the pack) not 3.1 foremost opposing on the track). D'oh.

The good news is that those mistakes won't happen again, at least with me . . .

~j.z.


===============
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2008, 01:53:57 am »
I think the helmet cover incident was an especially good example. I'm making note of that one for myself!
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Pallbearer

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2008, 02:17:46 am »
Wow it's strange to read the jammer and see HE in the sentence !

Good examples for us all here.

Oh, boy, I loves me some self-flagellation.

12/7 - Men's Derby Conference II, Jam reffing: jammer accidentally loses cover out of bounds and turns around and skates back to get it. I do not give him a major because he was OOB, and did not think recovery was automatically considered a star pass. But rules nest star recovery inside the star pass rules, and say nothing about being in play/ in bounds if skater skates clockwise to recover, so, major.



Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2008, 02:23:56 am »
The most recent bout I reffed was a WFTDA sanctioned bout between Memphis and Huntsville. The situation was unusual (for me) because the penalty box was in the infield. This made it peculiar for me, as a jam ref, to signal a major.
I would do the typical single whistle blast, signal the penalty (I'm still learning to implement hand signals to show what infraction occurred, so I surely didn't do this a few times), signal the major by pointing at the skater/across the track. This is where the problem occurred. I was pointing at the skaters and across the track for them to exit the track to serve their major and was confusing to the skaters because the penalty box was behind me. The hand signal that would have visibly made more sense in this situation would have been the Ejection/Expulsion hand signal, at least I would have been pointing at the penalty box then.
Almost every skater I sent off to the box knew exactly what I was doing. There was one skater though, who regularly did not seem to understand. She knew that I was calling a penalty on her, but did not seem to realize that it was a major and she needed to go to the box. It regularly took 40+ feet for me to convey that she was to exit the track and report to the penalty box.

What I learned from this is that I need to adapt myself to unusual track situations. In this case, I needed to be more vocal, and use phrases that I would not typically use. I will try to be more ready with "Major!", "Penalty box!" and "Off the track!"

This is my Achilles' heel. The thing that always gets me, though, is when I'm whistling at someone while clearly communicating the penalty in question both verbally and with hand signals, and the skater in question still just doesn't seem to get it. It's one thing when that happens with skaters who have little bout experience or leagues that are new or severely under-reffed. But vets and especially all-stars should know better, and all too often, they don't.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 02:39:30 am by DayGlo Divine »
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 2)
Charm City Roller Girls
Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2008, 02:11:44 pm »
Last weekend at a mini-tournament, non-WFTDA.  I was jammer ref and my jammer was in her scoring pass.  She was passing people but kept dodging in and out of bounds.  She accrued two minor track cuts in the span of about 5 seconds plus then called off the jam immediately after that.  Between communicating penalties to her, the wildly shifting pack and me having to also call off the jam suddenly it occurred to me that I wasn't sure if she had received 2 points or 3.  I went ahead and gave her the benefit of doubt and gave her three but later that night after it was all said and done I really thinks she only got two.  The game was in no way shape or form even close to being won or lost on this one point but it doesn't mean it couldn't have been.
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Offline Skillz

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2008, 02:20:13 am »
One that stands out was at SSS event in Atlanta. During one of the scrimmages, I noticed the jam ref for the opposing team was not around when the jam started. I took my eyes off the jammer to see where my fellow jam ref was cause I thought this was odd. When I did, my jammer had stepped oob well beyond the 20ft engagement zone. I caught the end of it but I never saw her skate out but I was certain afterwards she was. She gets through the pack and I give her lead status. Talk about drawing everyone's attention lol. I know I goofed cause I turned my head for a split second. At the same time, I didnt really see it happened so I couldnt penalize my jammer. 

Skillz That Killz
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Central Arkansas Roller Derby Rock n Renegades


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Offline Bianca Dunk

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2008, 10:20:31 pm »
Oh, boy, I loves me some self-flagellation.

Every time I think I've dealt with the last big rulefart I had left, and was all good, another one comes along and gets me:

12/7 - Men's Derby Conference II, Jam reffing: jammer accidentally loses cover out of bounds and turns around and skates back to get it. I do not give him a major because he was OOB, and did not think recovery was automatically considered a star pass. But rules nest star recovery inside the star pass rules, and say nothing about being in play/ in bounds if skater skates clockwise to recover, so, major.


Thank you all for this forum and this topic! I'm a noob amongst the zebra herd although I've been filming derby for 3 years.  Watching the action from the ref point of view is vastly different from that of the spectator/videographer.  I saw when Bastard lost his helmet cover during the Mens Derby conference and completely forgot to question why that wasn't called as a penalty. I was acting as penalty counter and as this was my first time out on the rink as an official, I was concentrating on my task at hand and it slipped my mind. Thank you for the clarification!




Offline Crotch Rock-It

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2009, 06:47:24 pm »
I have no idea how I missed that you have a blog, but after a quick skim read there is some good stuff there.

The latest gaff that I really hated with during a game between Atlanta's B team and Mississippi Rollergirls. I was Head Ref, and on being told number 8 had four minors, I simply sent off the first number 8 I saw. Now as background the penalty keepers had never worked a bout, and I was the only Ref with more than 4 bouts total. I blame myself entirely, but I really really should have known there'd be two numbers 8's out there. This would ordinarily not be  problem because experienced penalty staff would have picked it up, and I may not have been so distracted trying to teach new Refs mid game.

No excuses though, I got it wrong and had to make up for it. Because the # 8 that should have gone off was on the other team, I blew the jam dead immediately and reversed the score, and added time to the clock. I reversed the score because the point were awarded in error (jammer should have been in the box) and luckily no other penalties were current for that jam. This was not a WFTDA game and no real harm was done, but I did feel really stupid.

Most important to learn was that simple things will still bite your arse just as hard as the tricky stuff.

LOL.  That was a clusterf**k for a few minutes, Pallbearer.  One of the mistakes I made at that bout (which you so graciously pointed out to me afterwards  ;D ) was that I called a jammerless jam when I shouldn't have.  I was jam reffing, and the other jammer was in the penalty box.  I called a penalty on my jammer that sent her to the box, and I immediately called a jammerless jam before she got to the box.  Pallbearer then pointed out to me that I need to wait until both jammers are sitting in the box before calling a jammerless jam, because the other jammer might have had time to finish her penalty and get out of the box before my jammer could get to the box and sit down.  Live and learn.   :)

Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009, 12:22:01 am »
LOL.  That was a clusterf**k for a few minutes, Pallbearer.  One of the mistakes I made at that bout (which you so graciously pointed out to me afterwards  ;D ) was that I called a jammerless jam when I shouldn't have.  I was jam reffing, and the other jammer was in the penalty box.  I called a penalty on my jammer that sent her to the box, and I immediately called a jammerless jam before she got to the box.  Pallbearer then pointed out to me that I need to wait until both jammers are sitting in the box before calling a jammerless jam, because the other jammer might have had time to finish her penalty and get out of the box before my jammer could get to the box and sit down.  Live and learn.   :)

I've done something similar, although not on purpose. Other jammer is in the box; mine gets a major or fourth minor or whatever. Great. Time to hold hands with someone who's a foot taller than me and look like giant doofuses as we call off the jam together. Well, it would have been great except for one thing. Unbeknownst to me, the other jammer was unaware of standard penalty box procedure; despite having less than 10 seconds left on her penalty time, and despite being told to stand up by the penalty box manager, she was still sitting down. Assuming the other ref's hesitancy was because he was unaware that both jammers were in the box, I called off the jam. D'oh!

The moral of this story? If the other jammer ref isn't reaching for the almighty Fox 40 when both jammers are in the box, there may be a reason.
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 2)
Charm City Roller Girls
Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline doc_holla_j

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 03:16:45 pm »
Cross-Posted from Florida Refs Google Group:

I erred one jam during Tampa's bout with Sintral Florida last June by neglecting 8.2.3.2:  The referee will continue pointing to the Lead Jammer for the duration of the jam.

I had already called Tampa lead jammer, but mistakenly dropped the lead jammer sign momentarily to signal a major committed against her.  That's when the other jam ref looked to me and called a second lead jammer.  There were two lead jammers for a several seconds until Sintral's jammer called it off, much to my surprise.

Since it was a referee miscommunication, no penalty was issued and no points were scored before the jam's premature end.  The lead jam ref's priority is maintaining the point, not making signals.

-Doc
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 03:22:40 pm by doc_holla_j »
How else are we to interpret, apply, and enforce the rules unless every word is taken literally?

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 06:56:25 pm »
Cross-Posted from Florida Refs Google Group:

I erred one jam during Tampa's bout with Sintral Florida last June by neglecting 8.2.3.2:  The referee will continue pointing to the Lead Jammer for the duration of the jam.

I had already called Tampa lead jammer, but mistakenly dropped the lead jammer sign momentarily to signal a major committed against her.  That's when the other jam ref looked to me and called a second lead jammer.  There were two lead jammers for a several seconds until Sintral's jammer called it off, much to my surprise.

Since it was a referee miscommunication, no penalty was issued and no points were scored before the jam's premature end.  The lead jam ref's priority is maintaining the point, not making signals.

-Doc

Don't assume the full blame here, Doc. Yes, keep your arm up at all times, if possible, and make those double armed signals quick and use your pack refs to take care of longer issues if possible. But it's not always possible, and the second jammer ref bears some responsibility here -- many things can happen -- a pile up, the need to call a major, signaling a cut track, obstructed view, etc. S/he shouldn't only be checking the status of the other jammer at the moment lead might need to be called.

As the "behind" jammer ref, there are ways to help avoid making the mistake of double calling the LJ regardless of what the front jammer ref is doing, as it's never a given that you'll be able to see the status of the first jammer ref at the moment your jammer breaks the pack. When my jammer's behind, I always make sure to listen hard for those two whistle blasts. If I fail to hear them but realize the other jammer's gotten out, I'll take a quick peek to see what's going on *before* my jammer's about to break the pack to confirm the status of the other jammer.

As an additional visual aid, some refs have also begun adapting the Flying Squirrel practice of keeping the right or left arm tucked behind the back whenever possible as well if their jammer is not lead (it was a recommended practice at the WFTDA tourneys last year). Some Gotham refs have begun experimenting with keeping the left arm tucked behind on the initial pass, then after  signalling "not lead" for the lap to the back of the pack, switching to the RIGHT arm when the scoring pass begins (you can also keep score behind your back if you wish) -- it's a great way to help remember if your jammer is on a scoring pass  (right) or initial pass (left) if she goes to the box as well ;)

~j.z.



« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 09:05:39 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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