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Author Topic: Initiating a block using the forearm.  (Read 15054 times)

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 12:40:01 am »
right... contribution, i missed that first time around

sounds good
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Offline Brother Grim

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2009, 03:01:03 am »
isnt incidental contact just referring to "rubbing" forearms while skating?
... not contact that has impact

But if you look at 6.4 (Blocking with the head) all but one of the points refer to "incidental" contact, which when coupled with this discussion implies (to me, anyway) incidental contact is to be evaluated at any point in the game, regardless of how it occurs. And if it's specifically referred to in the rules, then there must be a reason.

When I read the rules for the very first time, the Forearms section seemed like a logical inclusion to stop pushing, which pretty much makes for a free-for-all. Try to think back to before you were able to pull apart the rules*. If you reduce this section to quite simply say, "You can't push with your forearms," then would you have really considered bumping into someone with your arms pulled in as a push?

On a side note this point has always sat funny with me:

[rule]6.3.3.2 The receiving skater is propelled forwards or sideways[/rule]

Don't the laws of physics essentially say that if one moving force hits a second, then the energy from the first will transfer to the second thus causing it to move in the same direction? (Roughly... physics wasn't my thing...). So really, it isn't an indication that a push has occurred, just that contact with a moving force has occurred.



*I find this often helps if I start to get too bogged down. Thinking about what the main reason for something being a penalty is sometimes makes it clearer. Forest, trees, and all that.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2009, 03:56:57 am »
On a side note this point has always sat funny with me:

[rule]6.3.3.2 The receiving skater is propelled forwards or sideways[/rule]

Don't the laws of physics essentially say that if one moving force hits a second, then the energy from the first will transfer to the second thus causing it to move in the same direction? (Roughly... physics wasn't my thing...). So really, it isn't an indication that a push has occurred, just that contact with a moving force has occurred.

It is important to think of the rules here as hierarchical. 6.3.3.1 is a subset of 6.3.3
[rule]   6.3.3   During forearm contact between skaters, the following are indications that a push has occurred:[/rule]

Before 6.3.3, there is 6.3.2

[rule]6.3.2   Incidental forearm contact between skaters is acceptable.[/rule]

So, the thought process is this:

  • See forearm contact
  • Decide if contact is incidental
    • If incidental:
      • No Impact/No Penalty
    • If not Incidental:
      • Did the blocked skater get propelled as a result of an extended forearm?
        • If no:
          • No Impact/No Penalty
        • If yes:
          • Determine impact
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2009, 04:51:15 am »
Man, I love that flow-chart.. I wish it were as simple as that to teach ALL the penalty procedures to my refs in training.

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Offline Brother Grim

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2009, 11:06:56 pm »
So, the thought process is this:

*insert flow chart*


Now THAT makes so much more sense. I can definitely apply that logic in the future.
Brother Grim

Offline noidd

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2009, 01:35:01 pm »

<ul>
<li>See forearm contact</li>
<li>Decide if contact is incidental
<ul>
<li>If incidental:
<ul>
<li>No Impact/No Penalty</li>
</ul></li>
<li>If not Incidental:
<ul>
<li>Did the blocked skater get propelled as a result of an extended forearm?
<ul><li>If no:
<ul><li>No Impact/No Penalty</li></ul></li>
<li>If yes:
<ul><li>Determine impact</li></ul></li></ul></li>
</ul</ul>


I tend to view "Did the blocked skater get propelled as a result of an extended forearm?" to be my definition of "If Incidental".

--
Referees are not here to legislate, dictate, pontificate or participate.  We are there only to facilitate.

Offline Ref Concrete.

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 11:20:28 am »
So what IS the verdict?!?!
Take 1 tspn of concrete and harden up.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 08:39:43 pm »
If the forearm is tucked into the body, its considered part of the body. Also the thread in question was from 2009.
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Offline Nick Bergus

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2012, 08:44:14 pm »
Also note that the rules update (are we calling them Jan. 1, 2013?) has removed the language "to absorb a hit."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 08:13:09 pm by Uranus Escheating »
WFTDA-certified referee, level 2
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2012, 08:49:53 pm »
Jan. 1, 2013."
They are called by the date as of the Dec 2009 set.
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