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Author Topic: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)  (Read 16113 times)

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« on: January 28, 2009, 02:10:58 pm »
So Zebra... are you saying that skating around a downed player does require a SOB penalty?

No[t automatically]: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=80.msg1242#msg1242

~j.z.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 03:53:58 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline Ballistic Whistle

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Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 08:49:45 am »
Okay, let's step back take a look at what we know here:

* You are not supposed to touch OOB
* There are specified  circumstances when you can touch OOB and not be penalized (force out, missed block)
* There are specified circumstances when you must be penalized for going OOB (avoid block, speed, shave distance)

* It is questionable whether impact is a consideration in every category of rules anymore (it arguably was in 2.1, but 3.0 it arguably is not).

For the most part, if a skater steps out, there's a reason to give a penalty. If she tries to jump for position and misses, goes wide on speed, etc. etc. etc.

But there are OOB moments not covered by these (Ex: skating out and around a downed player). These need to be taken case by case, using discretion. Should the rules encourage skaters to stay in bounds at all costs, regardless of the situation? I don't believe so.  What if going OOB was a matter of safety to avoid a sprawled skater on the track? I'd rather see a skater go out of bounds rather than try to thread the needle and risk kicking a downed skater in the face, so wouldn't issue a penalty if that was the obviously safer choice.

~j.z.
I see where you're coming from JZ. After all, safety's gotta be the number 1 priority.

So are you saying that you need to judge* whether or not Skating out of Bounds was a skater's only option? E.g you can tell that Skater A has the ability to stop before hitting the downed skater or skate around them while staying on the track, but instead they skated out of bounds around them.

There's an agrument in there for maintaining speed.

Obviously I agree with the safety assertion that both Nails and yourself have made, but this is a dangerous full contact sport and I'm wondering where you draw the safety line. At what point do you say "That's just part of the game".

* - Just put that in there coz I know you hate that word.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 01:23:12 pm »
And I see where you're coming from, BW - perfectly reasonable.

For me, this specific situation is not explicitly covered in the rules, yet. I've seen different refs call it along the spectrum of blanket no impact to automatic penalty.

For me, here's what I take into consideration (for better or for worse  :) ) --

* It's not a penalty to cut around a down player (not immediately applicable, I know, as it's about improving position but it still puts in my head  it's okay to go OOB if a player in front of you is down)

* That when situations unforeseen/not covered in the rules come up, discretion is allowable in the interest of fairness and safety. For me this is an issue of safety, and I draw the line on the side of allowing it, at least until clarified.

[Edit: and I tend to enforce this as a blanket call, to avoid judging -- though I like that word more than you think ;)]



~j.z.


« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 03:28:02 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 03:34:08 pm »
Okay, I just checked with some WFTDA refs/rules folk, and the consensus is unanimous that you do not call SOOB on cutting/ going OOB around a downed skater (basically for reasons cited above -- corollary with CT rule, and safety), and that that's the way it's generally enforced/called in WFTDA play.

Though it was also acknowledged that it might help to have that circumstance listed under "No Impact" for 6.2.9.

~j.z.


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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2009, 10:17:35 pm »
thnks jz .. good to know and I totally agree! Safety first!
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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 04:45:15 am »
I was quite surprised to find that anyone was giving a penalty for this. I'm glad this has been addressed (semi-?) officially.
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Offline Ballistic Whistle

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 02:24:54 pm »
I'm haooy about that.

@Joe, FYI - we don't call it like that, but I always thought we were going against the rules. Or more like, turning a blind eye so to speak.

Offline Tootie Tinwhistle

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 07:24:45 pm »
Slightly tangential, but another OOB example of safety/no impact(maybe it's a different topic, whilst close enough to put here):

What if the skater is not down?
Ex. Jammer is coming around the outside fast (maybe she was whipped, but just think really fast), aiming for a hole on the outside line.  Before she gets to the hole, the opposing blocker closes it and positionally blocks the jammer from coming through.  Since the jammer is cookin', she doesn't have enough time to stop on the track without committing a Back Blocking penalty (this is the important part, she wasn't about to get blocked laterally, and thus avoiding a hit, Blocker was in front, positionally blocking).  To avoid that penalty, she skates OOB, and waits, entering behind positional blocker, and tries the pass again.

Someone might try to argue that she wasn't blocked OOB, but I'd say she was successfully blocked OOB, just positionally.  Blocker effectively made OOB the only possible path to take.

Other people might say that she was avoiding a block, but again, I'd say she was blocked.  If you did want to give her a penalty, does it have minor or major effect?  Neither, she wound up in the same place she was before that whole thing started.
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Offline howie~swerve

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2009, 12:47:55 am »
Quote
Other people might say that she was avoiding a block, but again, I'd say she was blocked.  If you did want to give her a penalty, does it have minor or major effect?  Neither, she wound up in the same place she was before that whole thing started.

I'm really interested in people's response to Tootie's scenario.  It's like a derby equivalent of the logic problem that Kirk feeds to the enemy robot on old skule star trek.

in other areas we don't make a distinction between positional and contact blocking. 
So: how do we tell the difference between skating out of bounds to avoid a block and being positionally blocked out of bounds???

argh.

h~
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2009, 01:00:39 am »
So, then, what's positional blocking and what's not? Is it all positional blocking?

I'd probably give a SOOB minor.

~j.z.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 01:02:53 am »
Positional Blocking - Passive blocking is blocking without contact, positioning yourself in front of an opposing skater to impede her movement on the track.

There's a big difference between a blocker keeping you from getting ahead in the pack and someone laterally blocking the lights out of you. By the glossary definition it isn't possible to be positionally blocked OOB. If a skater is being positionally blocked by a blocker and they go OOB, they are doing so to avoid the block, and thus, a SOOB penalty.

Offline howie~swerve

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 03:12:51 am »
well, what we'd need is for a "block" and a "positional block" to become different things in 6.2.9.1.

at the moment, you if you are "blocked" out of bounds, you can return without a SOOB penalty -- without clarification, one could argue that this rule refers to any kind of block.

however, as L8R points out, the Glossary states that positional blocking only applies when the person being blocked is "on the track".  So that may be our answer... the Glossary makes it definitionally impossible to be "positionally blocked out of bounds".

SOOB minor.
Rollergirls of Central Kentucky (Lexington, KY)
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Offline Tootie Tinwhistle

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 04:52:34 am »
Okay, let me try a different one.  Never mind the Positional Block.  Think of this one:  Jammer coming around the corner fast, but doesn't see the blocker in front of her until it's too late to stop or maneuver around her without going OOB.  Rather than smash into her back, jammer skates OOB to avoid the BB penalty.  Now do you give her an avoiding the block penalty?
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Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 05:00:23 am »
replying to Tootie's first scenario and the responses to it... I think to give a SooB penalty, it has to be to the offender's advantage to skate out of bounds. She has to do something with the room or limits on out of bounds skaters that she couldn't do in-bounds. In his scenario, she doesn't do that. The opposing blocker wanted to stop her advancement, and did so by forcing the jammer to choose between a possible back block and going out of bounds. That's just a successful block in my book.
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Offline howie~swerve

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 05:20:17 am »
Okay, let me try a different one.  Never mind the Positional Block.  Think of this one:  Jammer coming around the corner fast, but doesn't see the blocker in front of her until it's too late to stop or maneuver around her without going OOB.  Rather than smash into her back, jammer skates OOB to avoid the BB penalty.  Now do you give her an avoiding the block penalty?

That seems easier.  Sure.  She's not in sufficient control of her speed and momentum to keep from doing something illegal, be it BB or SOOB.

If we're not worrying about whether a positional block is a "block" that sends her out of bounds, then it seems pretty straightforward...

h~
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 04:41:34 pm by howie~swerve »
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