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Author Topic: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)  (Read 16140 times)

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 05:29:48 pm »
There is really nothing about "Advantage" in SOOB. Did the skater SOOB to avoid a block?
Yes.. Penalty.

In the above, the Jammer is speeding down the back, steps around the corner and 'uh oh, blocker booty in the way' steps out. She just intentionally SOOB, if she cuts in front of the blocker Cutting the track, easy. If she did it to avoid the block, SOOB, if she can't stop herself and hits the person from behind depending on impact, Back Block. The Jammer CAN maneuver to the inside of the blocker and instead of hitting her with hands/arms to the back hit her hips/thigh to hips/thigh its a legal blocking/target zone.That is the Jammers discretion to make a legal move. SOOB, Cutting the Track, and Back Blocking are all Illegal moves that if she chooses to make them, she should get penalized for them per the rules.

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Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 06:50:23 pm »
But she didn't do it to avoid the block, she did it because of the block, to avoid doing something DANGEROUS. You want to penalize her for avoiding a dangerous move. So her choice is "smash into her back, and hope (reasonably) that the ref will consider that the blocker initiating contact" or "go out of bounds so I don't smash into her back", and you're going to penalize her for the latter choice, which means that you're encouraging her to make the former choice next time, because well, EVERYTIME she does the latter, she'll get a penalty, might as well just smash into her and hope that this time she doesn't get a penalty, since that's less for sure.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 06:58:36 pm »
As previously posted.
This is roller derby, with safety gear and girls hitting each other. The skater is in control of her own actions. She can choose to slow down as he enters the pack/corner, juke to the inside and legally hip block the blocker who is holding the line, or she can choose to skate out of bounds, I cannot infer "intent" . If she's skating out of bounds intending to avoid committing a 'dangerous' illegal block, I do not know. If she is "intending" to skate out of bounds to avoid a block at all. What I can look at is a) Did she skate out of bounds.  if so, Impact.  b) Did she skate into the back of the opposing blocker?  If so, Impact.  c) Did she skate into a legal target zone, with a legal blocking zone? If so no foul, if no, Impact.

I'm not encouraging skaters to make Illegal hits. I'm encouraging them to be responsible for the choices they DO make. Especially if the alternative is "Skating out of bounds to avoid the block is only a minor, vs., Skating into the back of the opposing skater is possibly a Major depending on impact.".

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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 09:00:33 pm »
I agree with RevRiot, here. I think the intent of this rule is that avoiding to RECEIVE a block is punished. Not to sanction avoiding a dangerous situation. If a skater comes up to another from behind too fast, steps out to avoid a collision, slows down and comes back in, I wouldn't give her a penalty, either.
I saw a jammer recently who stepped out to avoid being hit by an oncoming blocker. THAT is SOOB. (my opinion!)
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Offline howie~swerve

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 09:15:06 pm »
If a skater comes up to another from behind too fast, steps out to avoid a collision, slows down and comes back in, I wouldn't give her a penalty, either.

But if the "collision" is actually a well-placed booty block, isn't this the very situation that calls for a minor?
Quote
6.2.9.3 Skating out-of-bounds in an attempt to avoid a block.

And even if it's just a "collision," I'm pretty comfortable with penalizing fast, out-of-control jammer approaches to the pack when they lead to BB.  The better jammers get, the more they approach the pack with finesse and control (which is not to say less speed).

it sounds like what Riot and Riff are saying is that "If we didn't let her SOOB, she would get a BB penalty because she was coming so fast and hard into the pack."  I'm not sure I want to ignore illegal actions that allow jammers (or anyone) to escape the consequences of reckless skating...
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Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2009, 09:38:59 pm »
I'm not saying "If we didn't let her SOOB, she would get a BB penalty because she was coming so fast and hard into the pack.", but it's close.

I'm saying if we didn't let her SOOB, she would commit a dangerous back block because she was coming so fast and hard into the pack. Regardless of penalty. I'm fine giving a penalty when earned, but I'd rather they not earn it, I want to encourage them to not earn penalties through judicious use of discretion.

If the contact is initiated by the blocker, and it's a booty block, then fine, they initiated that contact, they are responsible for it, and if it knocks them down, that's their call. Or if it was going to be a booty block and THAT'S why the Jammer skated out of bounds, then yeah, penalty for SooB to avoid a block.

For me it's the same thing as why, even before it was in the rules as such, we wouldn't penalize a skater for cutting around a downed player. If a skater's three choices are 1) cut the track, 2) jump over her or 3) run into her while she's down, I'd like to encourage number 1, because 2 and 3 are far more dangerous. So I'm not going to penalize a skater for making the safe choice (safe as in, preserves her and everyone else's safety).
Matthew Mantsch - Reverend Riot
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2009, 09:46:59 pm »
For me it gets down to this: avoiding a downed skater by going OOB is an easy metric that can be invoked for reasons of safety.

Avoiding an in-bounds, in-play and actively skating player who changes position and gets in front of you by going OOB is not -- it's not like the skater in front materialized out of thin air. If a skater takes a fast whip going around a turn, she is should be responsible for having the skill to take the whip and to avoid what's in front of her. If a blocker moves into her way, the whipped skater is still responsible for contact -- just like the way we are expected to call blocks in the back.

~j.z.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 09:48:33 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline howie~swerve

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2009, 10:01:17 pm »
I'm saying if we didn't let her SOOB, she would commit a dangerous back block because she was coming so fast and hard into the pack.

I get ya, but the concept of "a dangerous back block" is so incredibly dependent on the skills and capacities and tiredness of the skater receiving the hit -- to say nothing of the actual way the jammer makes contact -- that it's frankly impossible to guess what might have happened had the incoming jammer made contact.

And by not calling SOOB on the jammer, you're guessing that the particular contact that would have been made would have been unacceptably dangerous.  Ruling on a counterfactual scenario, in effect...
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2009, 01:23:57 am »
6.2.9.3 Skating out-of-bounds in an attempt to avoid a block.

It seems as if those who are proponents of allowing the skater to SOOB are forgetting that the penalty says an attempt to avoid a block, not attempt to avoid being blocked.

If a jammer comes whipping around a corner at breakneck speed and skates OOB to avoid a BB penalty, then she is, in essence, attempting to avoid a block. Now, while I agree that a skater whipping around a turn and slamming into other players in the hope that a penalty doesn't materialize is dangerous, if it happens more than once I would warn the skater to stop or I would call:

6.2.13.6 Gross misconduct defined as an indiscretion so serious that it justifies the instant ejection of a skater, even on the first occurrence.

It is just as much as a skater's responsibility as a ref's to ensure safety during play. If a skater is ignoring the safety of other players on the track I am going to call them out on it, and, if need be, eject them.

Basically my solution for a skater who is worried about getting a BB penalty (or other) for whipping around a turn is for the skater to not whip around a turn.

Offline Jonathan Lee

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2009, 03:45:17 am »
People more knowledgeable of the spirit of the rules can probably attest to this better, but I truly do not think that rules is meant to say that a skater gets a penalty if they skate out of bounds in order to avoid committing a block. I have never heard that interpretation, and I have seen this situation happen in tournaments and the jammer going OOB never got a SOOB penalty for going OOB to avoid running into a blockers back. Sometime a SOOB penalty if the blocker was angling to block them, but nothing otherwise.

If a jammer comes whipping around a corner at breakneck speed and skates OOB to avoid a BB penalty, then she is, in essence, attempting to avoid a block.

It is also a missed block.

Quote
No Impact/No Penalty
6.2.9.2 Skating out-of-bounds as the result of a missed or successful block.
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Offline Tootie Tinwhistle

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2009, 04:11:11 pm »
Okay, y'all are right (at least about the positional blocking one).  Yeah, that happened this weekend at Four Corners and I immediately called in Intentional OOB/Avoiding the block, then it hit me, "Wait I was just trying to make an argument against that" but seeing it made it much more clear than imagining it.

I still don't call it on a stationary/not going for a block skater.  All the other reasons have been mentioned.
I also received confirmation from an anonymous source:  Blocker moving for a block (hit or positional)=OOB minor  Blocker not moving for a block=No penalty.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2009, 05:54:25 pm »
This is off-topic, but look at the time Tootie posted the last post.


Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Skating OOB around a downed player (was: Skating OOB)
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2009, 06:56:00 pm »
what is so special about 11 minutes past 5? ... hehe zebra huddle has gone global... ;)
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