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Author Topic: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.  (Read 15990 times)

Offline Professor Murder

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 02:57:36 pm »
At as high a level of play as the Eastern regional championship bout, I expect that the rules were being followed just as they were intended to be followed. That's all I'm saying.

I don't know that it's an issue of being in limbo.  A blocker on the pivot line does not satisfy the "no impact" criterion for illegal procedure.
Quote
6.2.8.1 A Blocker who is on the track, between the Jammer and Pivot lines, but not in
position before the first whistle blows -- she is skating into her position when the jam
actually starts

She's not in position before the first whistle blows, but she's also not in position "when the jam actually starts," but she's not "skating into her position" either.

I do, and continue to, call IP minors for lining up on the pivot line.  I have called them at very high levels of play, and did so enough that I'm confident nobody could overlook just how many I was assigning. 

Skaters had their time to position themselves to start a jam.  The penalty would not, of course, be called until the jam started and the blockers took off along with the pivots.  But as I said, I have, and will, call it until told otherwise. 
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Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 03:04:27 pm »
1. There is not a penalty outlined in the penalty section for not adhering to the pre-jam formation nor is there a reference to a specific item in section 6 in the pre-jam formation section. Check section 4.1, you will see the phrase "subject to penalties", this is not in section 4.2 Pre-Jam Formation.
2. There is no advantage gained by not lining up in two rows.
3. The name of the figure in the rules includes the word EXAMPLE
4. The section is used to describe how the game is played.
5. Not everything in the rules is a rule that results in a penalty:
2.1.6 For safety and visibility, the track surface, boundaries, safety zone, and penalty box should be clearly lit.
If it isn't well lit, you don't call a penalty on the electrician before the bout or something.
6. Glue factory.


No penalty if the blockers on between the pivot/jammer line before the first whistle blast.


DC Rollergirls, Head Referee

Offline Professor Murder

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2009, 03:29:39 pm »
There's no advantage gained from having blockers on the front line?  Defend that.
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Offline Jonathan Lee

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 04:10:19 pm »
This is one of the very, very, very few cases where the rules are not super clear.

Here's what you need to know: if blockers are lined up at the pivot line when there are pivots on the track, it's a penalty. Illegal procedure.

Edit: You do not, though, need to give a penalty every time. You can make it a warning if appropriate.

Quote
1. There is not a penalty outlined in the penalty section for not adhering to the pre-jam formation nor is there a reference to a specific item in section 6 in the pre-jam formation section

From 6.2: Type of Penalties
Quote
Illegal actions not specified below must be enforced using these specifics as guiding examples.

Quote
What if they watch the clock and take a running start (between the two lines) so that as the first whistle goes, they're hitting the pivot line with speed?

That's legal.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 04:26:28 pm by HunterStompson »
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Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 04:31:22 pm »
There's no advantage gained from having blockers on the front line?  Defend that.
Defend what, that you misread me?  ;)
2. There is no advantage gained by not lining up in two rows.

If skaters are skattered to the wind all over the place and not lined up in two rows, there isn't an advantage. The non-Pivot Blockers on the issue isn't covered as a penalty in 3.1. There was a thread about this and what was said was to politely ask the non pivot blockers to back up off the line. How far back is enough though? 1", 6", 1', 2' a full person? How far for you to stop giving penalties? Is that the same as other refs? Etc etc..

What if the pivot DIDN'T line up on the line, you gonna give them a penalty for that? It says Pivot Blockers line up on the line right?

You are privy to the voting taking place on 4.0, so.....

Edit: You do not, though, need to give a penalty every time. You can make it a warning if appropriate.
Exactly. From what I recall, this was the preferred practice. Something along the lines of "Ask them politely to backup, if they do not you have bigger problems"
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 04:49:56 pm by Ref Neck »
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2009, 04:59:13 pm »
Okay, there's confusion here about this. Endless Justin's gonna try to get in here and help out, but he's a busy dude.

In the meantime, we are all asked to recall

http://rules.wftda.com/2008/06/19/pre-jam-formation-question/

-- specifically the phrase "However, strict adherence to the Pre-Jam Formation diagram is not vitally important"

-- it's an example, not a strict formulation, so if skaters want to line up in two lines, three lines, one big line behind the pivots, have a dance party with no lines, so be it. Blockers just have to be on the track, between the two lines, so a blocker can choose to be 25 feet behind the pivot line sticking her tongue out at everybody else up front if she chooses.

I'm not saying that this is crystal clear in the rules as currently written - hence this discussion. I am saying that this is the guidance/clarifiaction that's been provided to us for how this should work under the current rules.

[Edit - to the original Q: In the past there has been some distinction made between non-pivots needing to be behind the pivots, but not necessarily in any defined order, but I've heard it doesn't matter.  So I agree that a specific clarification would help, given the guidance the blockers just need to be between the lines.]

Hope this helps!



~j.z.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 05:12:35 pm by Johnny Zebra »
===============
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2009, 09:18:01 pm »
Jz... with respect, that rules clarification you've quoted also states

"Pivots should line-up directly behind the Pivot line and all other Blockers in two rows. "

so i dont understand why you'd say... "so if skaters want to line up in two lines, three lines, one big line behind the pivots, have a dance party with no lines, so be it."

sure the DIAGRAM in the rules doesnt have to be followed, but both the rules and the clarification give positions where the players are to line up.

as stated elsewhere - perhaps the rules are intended to say something else (despite this wording being used since 2.1); perhaps ignoring the pre-jam formation is something that's evolved since the release of 3... i dont know. we only have what the current rules actually say - whether it's right or not

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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2009, 09:25:31 pm »
as stated elsewhere - perhaps the rules are intended to say something else (despite this wording being used since 2.1); perhaps ignoring the pre-jam formation is something that's evolved since the release of 3... i dont know. we only have what the current rules actually say - whether it's right or not

Since 3.0 was released, that's how I've seen every bout called. This is because of the in position definition. I didn't even see a workup to that. I think that there was just an understanding. The first 3.0 bout I reffed, and every one I've reffed or watched since has been called ignoring the pre-jam formation.
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2009, 09:39:40 pm »
so i dont understand why you'd say... "so if skaters want to line up in two lines, three lines, one big line behind the pivots, have a dance party with no lines, so be it."

 . . .

as stated elsewhere - perhaps the rules are intended to say something else (despite this wording being used since 2.1); perhaps ignoring the pre-jam formation is something that's evolved since the release of 3... i dont know. we only have what the current rules actually say - whether it's right or not

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 09:50:13 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2009, 10:21:18 pm »
Here's what we do at Windy City; maybe this will be helpful.

Since there is no penalty specified, our Head Ref and Assistant Head Ref asked the Captains if they would like refs to enforce the pre-jam formation as outlined in the rules.  The Captains said yes, they would like us to enforce that:
-Pivots line up on the Pivot line
-Blockers line up in two rows behind them (not necessarily like the picture, just two rows of any kind)
-There be "daylight" between each row (so that they are distinguishable rows, and people aren't crowding up on each other's backs)

If they aren't lined up as such, the inside pack refs will either say "Two Rows," or "Daylight," or both; whatever is applicable.  If the skaters don't fix their positions, they can be assessed a penalty for Insubordination.  Insubordination, according the the rules, is always a Major or Expulsion.  This, of course, is not that serious an offense, so in accordance with 8.3.1, we decrease the severity of the penalty to a Minor. 

We've been doing this at scrimmage for a few weeks, and it's been going fine.  Everyone is clear that the Captains made the decision to have this enforced, so it's a skater-led move, and no one has complained.  I also have not had to issue any penalties for it.  There is only so much time between jams to make sure this is all in place, so if the whistle blows when they are skating into position, or starting to fix a position that I've asked them to correct, I don't call penalties.  If they looked me right in the eye after I politely requested Two Rows or Daylight and didn't budge, they'd get a minor.
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Offline Brother Grim

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2009, 12:14:21 am »
I've got a couple of questions:

If rules.wftda.com states strict adherence is not required, what exactly is the question? Is it if the skaters are stationary prior to the first whitsle then they are not "in or skating into position" therefore in violation of the rules?

Did the idea of Pivots at the front of the pack come from the original position of Pivot being the pacesetter for the pack (which is no longer necessarily the case)?

And as a result of that, what exactly is the advantage gained by a Blocker lining up next to the Pivots? Especially if they can all do it, but chose not to.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm genuinely curious about the answers to these questions.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2009, 12:36:54 am »
That is why Justin is going to get the 'word from above' on the issue when he's able to get back to us.

Personally my opinion the use of the word "should" makes it a 'suggestion' rather than a demand. If they had said Skaters WILL line up, its stronger than a suggestion.

But I will await the verdict on high,..  I do like both JZ's thought process ( I vote skater conga line myself)  as well as Stegosauras'  Let the Captains decide pre-bout and enforce as such.

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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2009, 04:18:28 am »
Personally my opinion the use of the word "should" makes it a 'suggestion' rather than a demand. If they had said Skaters WILL line up, its stronger than a suggestion.

FWIW, in national building and fire codes, the term "should" means that it may or not be done, and "shall" means it must be done.

Basically it seems that the next ruleset should clarify if the pre-jam formation is an example or not, and if it is, then what part of the pre-jam formation is mandatory (for example, pivots must always be at the front, directly behind the pivot).

Offline Endless Justin

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2009, 07:42:15 am »
Blockers lined up mostly on the line, never in accordance to the proposed formation.

blockers line up behind the pivot.  how far behind?  not very far at all.  a smidgen is good enough. 
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Offline Endless Justin

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Re: Someone must know - Starting lineup has me confused.
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2009, 07:43:41 am »
my girls line up pretty nicely in the "correct" formation... it seems to me it's more helpful than restrictive to them (everyone knows her place)...

i don't comment on strategy or training

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