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Author Topic: Score keepers helping out refs  (Read 3825 times)

Offline L8R SK8R

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Score keepers helping out refs
« on: February 01, 2009, 05:00:09 am »
This is something I've heard of at other leagues, but we don't currently do it at ours: score keepers who basically work as a backup for the jam refs. The idea is that score keepers are always keeping their eyes on their jam refs, and as such also sort of on the jammer. Sometimes the score keeper sees something the jam ref missed, like missed NOTT points, or points scored on initial passes, etc. I've heard of some leagues that allow, and in fact encourage, score keepers to bring these discrepancies to the attention of the jam ref so the jam ref can fix an error if they decide it was an error. We currently have made it the responsibilty of the teams to bring score discrepancies to the attention of the head ref, not the score keepers.

Does your league use this practice? If so/not, why?

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 06:26:23 am »
We use the method that you are saying that your league uses.
I don't necessarily have a problem with a scorekeeper keeping an eye on the jammer and keeping track of scoring passes. If a jam ref reports 3 points but the scorekeeper saw two passes, there might be something to bring up. I've dealt with scorekeepers that will either try to guess what I am about to report or tell me they saw a different number of points.
I don't think a scorekeeper should keep track of how many points a jammer is scoring (outside of what is reported to them), because the jam ref's vantage point should always be the best perspective to see when hips actually pass. Keep in mind that two people standing 10 feet apart will see the pass occur at different times.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 02:24:00 pm »
As well as if the scorekeeper is sitting on the sidelines/infield in a seat watching, she may miss the jammer step out of bounds on the pass, or an otherwise 'MInor' that kept the point from occurring, that the Ref would inform the penalty tracker of.

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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 04:25:24 am »
I was a scorekeeper at Eastern Regionals last year, and we were asked to count points with our Jam Refs.  I never had a discrepancy to bring up.  But like others have said, if the scorekeeper sees something like two scoring laps and ref reports fewer points than one would expect, it's good to have a second pair of eyes on the whole thing.  It was also helpful the few times that the ref would forget to report the score to me.  If this ever happened during a jam with a scoring lap, I would run into the infield to get the score, but when I was 100% sure the jammer either never made it out of the pack or never began a scoring pass, I would feel confident recording 0 points without having to interrupt game flow.  Especially in a tournament setting, when people are working bout after bout, there's a chance of spacing out for a second about whether something happened in this jam or the last one, or whether she's on her initial pass or scoring pass.  Of course tournament-level refs should be able to handle staying as focused as they need to be, but there's nothing wrong with a little back up.

I would say scorekeepers need to understand that point though: they are watching as back up, not as the person who gets to determine the score.  If there are discrepancies, it's OK to ask for confirmation, or address it in an "Are you sure?  Because I thought I saw..." manner.  But if a scorekeeper is consistently arguing over 1 point, or thinks that their vantage point is as good as the Jam Ref's, they may need clarification on their role as back up.  Or they might be better-suited for a different position. 
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Offline Izzy Wright

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 04:06:03 pm »
I have trained my scorekeepers to intentionally do this. They work in tandem with the jam ref as a back up. NOTT points, laps and even points. We have had this work out well for us and for the most part the jam refs are not put off by being questioned or reminded on the occasion when something may be off, but relieved. But what Stego said is important, they are only a back up, a resource for our jam refs to use.


Quote
I would say scorekeepers need to understand that point though: they are watching as back up, not as the person who gets to determine the score.  If there are discrepancies, it's OK to ask for confirmation, or address it in an "Are you sure?  Because I thought I saw..." manner.

Izzy

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Offline Matt the Knife

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 06:39:31 pm »
At the moment the league I'm with doesn't have any permanant support staff/officials, so scorekeeping, penalty tracking etc is given to the girls that are for whatever reason not scrimaging that day. This for bouts leaves me with rookies. I wouldn't trust the arguement of a rookie skater over that of a jam ref for discrepancies in the counting, as has been mentioned above, the jam ref has the best vantage point and also should have a greater knowledge of the rules, esspecially those relating to points scoring, than a new skater.

However if you have full time scorekeepers, or are a ref put into a scorekeepers shoes for a tournament, I can see the advantage of having them keep an eye on things too, but would only go so far as to let them argue if the points are way off, such as an entire pass not counted etc, as one or two points could be down to OOB or other minors not observed from a seated position in the centre of the infield, which will no doubt have it's view obsured by the collective asses of jam, pack and head refs.
Matt the Knife
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 09:25:25 am »
I am in the same situation as Matt is. But we practiced with score and penalty trackers a few times before the last bout and I told all of them to have an eye on what is happening. Merely for the penalty trackers to avoid duplicate calls. We I encouraged them to check back with the refs if they have seen it otherwise. We had very unexperienced jam refs so we asked the score keepers to be alert and if they think the score was really wrong, check back with the jam ref and the head ref (who had also an eye on the jam refs).
But of course it can never be the NSO's decision. They also shouldn't start discussions that end up in lots of time-outs. But alert NSO's can be very useful, I think. Especially if the refs are rookies as I am...
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Offline Izzy Wright

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 05:28:30 pm »
Yeah, I guess I should have mentioned that I am lucky enough to have dedicated NSOs who are experienced, which, I understand not every league has this. Also, I require all my key NSOs to take the same written test that my skating refs take.

Izzy
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Offline Tootie Tinwhistle

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 09:51:38 pm »
A former league did away with this and I really missed it.  More than anything for me, it was a back-up in case of an official review.  There were a few times when an official review was called and I had the benefit of being able to point out that two of us counted the same way.  Overall, any amount of second set of eyes and counting fingers is gonna be helpful.  The Jammer Ref always has the final say, but back-up reinforcement rocks.
Denver Roller Dolls
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Offline Harry Spoter

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Re: Score keepers helping out refs
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 01:26:56 pm »
This is the same that we do with our Bouts with no set stats people so have to have girls that aren't skating the bouts do those position. But in the lead up to bouts we would practice at scrimmage with the set officials for that bout a couple weeks prior. Now that our current intake is up and away we are looking at having set officials job's mainly so they will always know what's going on and can get practice in Scrimmage practice rather then watching from the sidelines.
Harry "Spots" Spot'er
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Victorian Roller Derby League
Melbourne, Australia
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